Meditation (rituals, tradition, God, Zen)

[Engyo]

Maybe I didn't phrase that well. I know what ZZ is talking about, I recognize the terminology, and I roughly understand where he is trying to go.

What I should have said is that the style of practice and method he advocates would have been intensely, immensely frustrating and irritating to me, and would most likely have driven me from Buddhist practice completely had that been the only avenue open to me. Instead I have found a Dharma Path that is much more suited to my particular proclivities, and affords me a much greater chance of creating positive changes in myself over the long haul. I hope this makes things a bit clearer.

[MysticSang'ha]

Heh heh heh. I can totally respect that, Engyo. Were I to attempt to go back to zazen form of meditation at our local Zen center, I doubt if it would take long before any sang'ha would feel compelled to boot me out on my ear. I'm very used to putting as part of my morning sessions a litany of mantras and prayers over and over again, as I assume you have yours with the Lotus Sutra?




I'd simply feel drawn toward chanting "Om Mani Padme Hum" over and over again. That and the Zung of the Completely Exalted Pure Light. The Hundred Syllable Vajrasattva Mantra..........and then, of course, prostrations to the 35 Confessions Buddhas and the 7 Medicine Buddhas. This is where I'd perhaps be hit sharply with the Zen master's stick - for the thousandth time.



I think I'm in the same boat as you, Engyo, that I can certainly appreciate zenzero's penchant for "dropping" the mind and simply being at one with sunyata and emptiness, but I also disagree with the idea that this is the only way to practice and to attain enlightenment. There's a reason why Buddhism has succeeded in such varying cultures from the southern Theravadin practices to the northern Mahayana, Ch'an and Zen, and Vajrayana vehicles. It is because the Buddha-Dharma allows for this flexibility to such variances.



ZZ, forgive me if I sound rude by looking as if I'm talking about you as if you weren't here. I'd love to continue with more input from you for further discussion.



Peace,
Mystic

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by kadzbiz

I just don't understand. What is the point to it all if I end up not existing? What am I supposed to be achieving thru this art of zen. Please help me understand.

Hi again kadbiz, This isn't really the right thread to be asking this question, since the subject of this thread is meditation. Several people have already asked the question you posed if you look at the general Buddhism forum. Or you can post this question yourself there.

That said, the goal of Buddhism is not to not exist. Whether you practice Buddhism or not, sooner or later you will end up not existing. Is that not so? Existence leads to non-existence and non-existence leads to existence... in an endless cycle. And thru it all is suffering. The goal of Buddhism is to transcend both existence and non-existence.

[Engyo]

Originally Posted by MysticSang'ha

Heh heh heh. I can totally respect that, Engyo. Were I to attempt to go back to zazen form of meditation at our local Zen center, I doubt if it would take long before any sang'ha would feel compelled to boot me out on my ear. I'm very used to putting as part of my morning sessions a litany of mantras and prayers over and over again, as I assume you have yours with the Lotus Sutra?

Mystic -

Yes, we have a series of sutra recitations and mantra chanting that forms our daily services. We do have one meditation service which combines silent sitting with mantra chanting. It starts with a few invocations, then a period of silent sitting. We close that and then we chant our mantra for a period of time, beginning very slowly and increasing in tempo until we are going quite fast. The tempo then drops back down to the original slow beat, and stops. We enter another period of silent sitting. Then there is a prayer and a recitation of the Four Great Vows, and then we close the service.

[MysticSang'ha]

Originally Posted by Engyo

Mystic -

Yes, we have a series of sutra recitations and mantra chanting that forms our daily services. We do have one meditation service which combines silent sitting with mantra chanting. It starts with a few invocations, then a period of silent sitting. We close that and then we chant our mantra for a period of time, beginning very slowly and increasing in tempo until we are going quite fast. The tempo then drops back down to the original slow beat, and stops. We enter another period of silent sitting. Then there is a prayer and a recitation of the Four Great Vows, and then we close the service.

Oh, yes! That's right! I'd sat in and participated in a couple of your services, but that was years ago, and I thought that my memory might not serve me well. Thanks for reminding me of your practice!




I remember coming out of the services feeling so happy and jazzed. It is so cool.



Peace,
Mystic

[EET]

Meditation to me is about attention or consciousness and bringing it out of the body and putting it into something else. i prefer to meditate by myself, less distraction, and fouc my attention at the third eye. After a bit my body becomes dead and sometime it is left behind. Then the light and flying upward. (smile)

[zenzero]

kadzbiz
I just don't understand. What is the point to it all if I end up not existing? What am I supposed to be achieving thru this art of zen. Please help me understand.

koan vbmenu_register("postmenu_776861", true); Actualy, its more complicated than we don't exist. The formular is, We exist, we don't exist. We both exist and don't exist. We niether exist or don't exist. The Mahayana Heart Sutra sums it up the best. Form is emptiness, Emptiness is Form.

Engyo vbmenu_register("postmenu_776885", true); Personally, I can't make heads or tails of ZZ's emptiness rhetoric either, but then that isn't the form of Buddhism I practice. ZZ just comes across as if his way is the only way, and I don't believe so.

MysticSang'ha vbmenu_register("postmenu_776913", true);
Non-Theist
ZZ, forgive me if I sound rude by looking as if I'm talking about you as if you weren't here. I'd love to continue with more input from you for further discussion

Lilithu That said, the goal of Buddhism is not to not exist. Whether you practice Buddhism or not, sooner or later you will end up not existing. Is that not so? Existence leads to non-existence and non-existence leads to existence... in an endless cycle. And thru it all is suffering. The goal of Buddhism is to transcend both existence and non-existence.


Responding to all friends here.
The idea is to come to an understanding and not create differences.
The understanding is needed to understand that since man is born in his image and also that everything including all humans including us are only but ONE why is still there differences?
If one understand one will come to realize that it is the doing of the individual MIND.
Mind is the same SATAN that Bible talks about that easily got Eve to get Adam to eat the fruit of knowledge and eventually had to be thrown out of the garden of Eden.
Every human too is born Enlightened but slowly the Mind takes over and throws man out of Eden.
Please understand that there are as many WAYS as there are number of humans; each person is unique and is in a unique time-space zone typical to him/her and the WAY that suits that individual is best for him/her. Wherever each individual is is good enough and each can rediscover the Garden of Eden again, only that realization that each form/no form is only appears different or else is the same and has to go back to that same source one day.
There is no question that one method/WAY is the only WAY/method.
To start with one has to start and practise what suits him/her but eventually the point of no-mind or where is mind is still has to be brought about to see/realize/understand TRUTH/god/nature/etc. It is also Shunyata. One can merge with the source at that point when the mind is still like when the human was born like what Jesus had said about children admitted to his kingdom. Means one is child like when the mind is not in between the man and nature.
The point of this no-mind or where the mind is still is achieved by various means and each one can be termed meditation as meditation is when the mind is still.
Existence is when one with all things is in unity except when the person whose mind is functioning is automatically absent, the person is not present he is absorbed in his/her thoughts and so is absent. And so all religion talks about HERE-NOW that is ZEN which means meditation or dhyana.
When it is said I do not exists does not means existence is not there. The body remains but the conciousness. attention/mindfulness is there without the mind thinking and becoming absent at that point of reference. When the presence is total and mind need not think any more it is the state of samadhi.
The body of each individual has to exists to merge the ego/mind is not present to claim/to think differently.

Some of you have the answeres but maybe still have self doubts and that is because of the mind itself which never allows one to see things clearly always taking sides and confusing the individual.

How one reaches the point of stilling the mind could be individualistic but after that TRUTH is ONE.
The end result is ONE no dualism exits. I and god both cannot exists. Either God is me or I am god. Buddha never talked about god for the same reason as the mind always creates a picture of a god that each individual mind creates for him/her.

Buddha middle path is similar to the pendulum where the pendulum like the mind is always this side or that side except the point in the middle where the pendulum is in a right balance neither this side or that side. One who can be in that middle or the center like that of any cyclone where there is stillness, nothing, no movement is where the actual truth lies.
Life has no beginning nor end evolution too will keep moving forward from a single cell to plant life to animals to humans to a more evolved form tomorrow [should be – as per the progression line]
If someone does not follow upto this point please raise the issue for further discussion and clarification.