What is Zen? (Earth, mystic, Buddhism, eternity, Buddhism)

[zenzero]

Just read an overview on Zen Buddhism.
Fine its all in the books.
Buddha never read books.
He indicated ways of realising the self and that is mainly by DHYANA or ZEN or meditation
Discussions may help provided each is doing his/her main karma which is DHYANA or ZEN.
Instead of discussing theories of Zen it is important to discuss where we find problem in DHYANA or ZEN.
If none faces problem in its practice then surely we all can hear the ONE HAND CLAPPING.
If we do; then keep clapping silently and thats the end of all discussions on earth.
U r a Buddha now.
Anyone with REAL problems, shoot but be prepared to get the Zen masters stick.
with love & rgds

[Otisreborn]

Who is it that is enlightened?

[zenzero]

Everyone is born enlightened. Only the realisation is required.
Love & rgds

[kadzbiz]

So now it's not enlightenment that we seek, but realisation?

[Engyo]

Dan -

Don't get caught in ZZ's zen rhetoric. If it is confusing, or not attractive, then there are many other Dharma Gates through which one can enter the path.

Zen is often criticized as moving too far from the Buddha's teachings; I do not accuse anyone, but some folks can find much more potential for advancement in a different teaching style than is generally found in Zen.

Please understand that I have nothing against zen, but it is not the be-all and end-all of Buddhist thought or teachings.

[MysticSang'ha]

Originally Posted by zenzero

Just read an overview on Zen Buddhism.
Fine its all in the books.
Buddha never read books.
He indicated ways of realising the self and that is mainly by DHYANA or ZEN or meditation
Discussions may help provided each is doing his/her main karma which is DHYANA or ZEN.
Instead of discussing theories of Zen it is important to discuss where we find problem in DHYANA or ZEN.
If none faces problem in its practice then surely we all can hear the ONE HAND CLAPPING.
If we do; then keep clapping silently and thats the end of all discussions on earth.
U r a Buddha now.
Anyone with REAL problems, shoot but be prepared to get the Zen masters stick.
with love & rgds

A couple of points to consider, zenzero. Buddha may have never read books, but he also never drove a car. No internet 2500 years ago, too. Books are a useful tool, but what Buddha was master of was the mind - THIS is where I see eye to eye with you.



Where I disagree with you is what seems to be your proposition that dhyana is all we need. According to you, there is no need for the Dharma, then, which is one of the three Refuges. Should we all burn the Tri-pataka? The Pali Canon? The Abhidharma? I'm curious why you have what seems to be an aversion to the written word and to other ways of interpreting the Dharma.



I'm simply throwing this out there, but is it possible that you are slightly deluded with your own attachment to Zen? To be fair, understand that I see all of us as suffering from our own delusions and ignorance at the moment. Perhaps this is where you fall short. You are certainly falling short of convincing this lot of sincere and dedicated practitioners.



Peace,
Mystic

[zenzero]

Friends,
Once again zen talks about instant enlightenment.
Kindly read the other post on meditation wherein it has been mentioned that there are as many ways as the number of people/humans on this earth. Each individual is unique as he/she is in a unique time-space zone. Here we all agree [presumbably] that all are ONE come fromthe same source and have to go back to the same source etc.
Where lies the difference, how come each thinks differently. That understanding/realisation is enough for that instant enlightenment cause the momenet the mind stills the thinking stops the person becomes present as he/she is absent from reality due to the preoccupation with his/her thoughts. When the thought process stops the person is one with reality/nature/god/etc. and is enlightened. but here the enlightenment is not total as the mind stops for a very minute peroid of time. By different WAYS one can enhance that period to eternity and then that can be termed samadhi or real enlightenment. The person becomes free from birth and death. Birth and death are again two sides of the same coin as nothing dies but it only changes form. The rules of nature are the same which man discovered scientifically over period of time but has been always there.
If anything is still not understood please raise it and the same shall be attempted to be dispelled with the limited understanding command over language, the power of words to explain what can only best be transmitted by silence.
WAYS is the same as that one follows. Each is right in his/her own WAY. No debates.
Love & rgds

[Vfr]

Originally Posted by zenzero

Just read an overview on Zen Buddhism.
Fine its all in the books.
Buddha never read books.
He indicated ways of realising the self and that is mainly by DHYANA or ZEN or meditation
Discussions may help provided each is doing his/her main karma which is DHYANA or ZEN.
Instead of discussing theories of Zen it is important to discuss where we find problem in DHYANA or ZEN.
If none faces problem in its practice then surely we all can hear the ONE HAND CLAPPING.
If we do; then keep clapping silently and thats the end of all discussions on earth.
U r a Buddha now.
Anyone with REAL problems, shoot but be prepared to get the Zen masters stick.
with love & rgds

Buddha never read books?

Buddha was not a traditional Zen practitioner as well.

"The distinguishing features of Zen is that of its meditation practice on nothingness (zazen) its use of mindfulness of the present moment, as well as it openness to freedom of religious thought."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen



You can divide Zen into 2 schools.

Rinzai and Soto.

Soto school likes to sit for enlightenment and is patient for it natural emergence.

Rinzai school is more active and use koans and strenuous practice as well as sitting to prod enlightenment out of a practitioner.

Zen is one of the best of the Buddhist schools in my opinion the best for finding enlightenment and inner peace.

But as for working in a classical direction that the Buddha taught it is the worse.

So just depends on which direction you are heading in with your practice.

BTW, I am a Zen practitioner myself.


....My discussion of this topic from an earlier post.


(...) Writes:


"Should I study Buddhism in the East, as I am afraid the Western Buddhism is just a watered version of real Buddhism?"


*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********


Real Buddhism???

Buddhism has and will always evolve.

It evolves from the egos of men.

99.9% of the Buddhists are just 'playing at Buddhism' and are so far off the road to classical Buddhism that their practice holds little or no resemblance to what the Buddha taught.

After all, what do monks have to do other than beg, eat, sleep, excrete, think, not think (meditate) and write.

It is through this constant need to 'think and write' that the Pali canon grew to 20,000+ pages and nearly 30,000 pages in China.

The canon contains nothing the Buddha wrote down.

It contains a small amount of recitation from his butler Amanda, but nothing original from the Buddha.

The rest is all from the egos of monks.

So it is natural that Buddhism has evolved into a watered down version of itself that the Buddha himself would hardly recognize.

When this classical Buddhism became too hard - Mahayana Buddhism was invented.

When Mahayana Buddhism became too hard - Pure Land Buddhism was invented

When Pure Land Buddhism became too hard - Won Buddhism was invented. (just to name a few)

But for the average folks...meaning 99.9% of the Buddhists. Pain is decreased in proportion to your efforts at perfecting the eightfold path.

I believe the traditional views of Buddhist beliefs of escaping samsara are dead as far as practical application for the most part of society. To escape rebirth is impractical for the vast, vast majority of Buddhists.

I'll give you an example you can all relate to.

If you are reading this you have no chance of escaping rebirth...you are too full of passion to escape anything.

What you 'should' be doing as a self proclaimed 'serious Buddhist practitioner' is; instead of reading and writing on the computer you would be meditating on the three liberation's.

By meditating on emptiness, formlessness and passionlessness, this will allow you, with a few lifetimes of diligent practice, to recognize the three liberation's of the ego and the dharma as being empty, the dharma as formless and this eventually the recognition of living is an unworthy desire as our existence is characterized by suffering.


end page 1

[Vfr]

page 2 concluded


What is the path of classical Buddhism as the Buddha taught?

From our best efforts and deciphering the jumbled mess that was handed down to us it was:

To become a renunciate and practice the 4 noble truths

http://www.4truths.com/

and through the perfection of the eightfold path

http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/eightfoldpath.html

to free oneself from the 10 fetters that bind a person to cyclic existence

http://buddhism.about.com/od/keyconcepts/a/Fetters.htm

and thus become an arhat and enlightened

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arhat

and through a few lifetimes of such practice to extinguish reincarnation, leave the cycle of samsara

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/samsara.html

and reach nirvana.

http://www.acay.com.au/~silkroad/buddha/p_nirvana.htm

...that is how the pain of life finally ceases. (as the story goes)


Personally, I draw from many spiritual traditions myself, including monotheism, Buddhism, Taoism as well as atheism. (secular humanism)

See:

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=4.0

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=504.0

My main focus of my Buddhist practice is concentrated on the 3 pillars of Buddhism that are common to all schools of Buddhist practice: I've settled on the essence of Buddhism and that is what I work on and find much peace with this type of simplified practice.

3 Pillars of Buddhism

1- Practicing mindfulness and meditation to develop peace and self awareness of our own true nature.

2- Accepting the liberating wisdom of impermanence and practicing non-clinging and a lessening of craving and desires.

3- The development of compassion for others.

Buddhists are not required to believe or not believe in god, so anyone can make use of this philosophy irrespective of their religious beliefs or lack thereof. Buddha was not a god and just a man, so not need to worship him unless you are a 'Pure Land Buddhist.'

In addition to the 3 pillars, we can use the eightfold path to guide us.

The Eightfold Path

1. Right View
2. Right Intention
3. Right Speech
4. Right Action
5. Right Livelihood
6. Right Effort
7. Right Mindfulness
8. Right Concentration

How can you differentiate right from wrong?

By peace.

You learn what destroys your peace and the peace of others as well as what promotes you inner peace and the inner peace of others.

Do you need a teacher for that?

Or the Pope to tell you?

Or just listen to peace as the best teacher?

The 5 precepts are the 'commandments' more or less for Buddhists. Although you are not commanded to do a thing. If you wish to live at peace, then proceed the best you can - but it is your choice.

No one to boss you other than you...you alone are in control of your inner peace.

The Five Precepts

1. Refrain from Killing:
2. Refrain from Stealing:
3. Refrain from Sexual Misconduct:
4. Refrain from False Speech:
5. Refrain from the Use of Intoxicants:

Buddhism provides this tool, which is just one out of the many tools I use for peace development. For once we have found a contentment within and with all and are at peace - we are progressing on the road to enlightenment.

You can also tell when you have "arrived" by your practice telling you so. Does your practice revolve around actually practicing what you have learned to generate peace within or are you on a never ending journey of always looking and never finding?

Once I am at peace, I can share with others about finding peace for themselves, which is the secondary reason I practice.

I have no interest in practicing Buddhism for extinguishing reincarnation.

These "fear based" reasons for being a Buddhist are not authentic or natural - the persons actions are based on fear or negative consequences otherwise they would not do them.

My actions are based on inner peace and if I stray - there goes my peace - it is my choice.

I enjoy life and realize that due to natural law, suffering comes about as part of the process.

The Taoists have a saying for this, "fleas come with the dog."

So, I accept there are growth pains as a fair trade off for the privilege of living and I would enjoy any reincarnation if given the chance.

Buddhism helps makes this trade off of life and pain more in my favor by lending me support to live a life at peace. I do not practice Buddhism to earn merit for the next life - I practice Buddhism for my own peace generation in THIS LIFE.

I'd like to point out that my views are not the orthodox or traditional views on these subjects as I am an Agnostic Freethinker.



Also see:

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=9.0




Take Care,


V (Male)

Agnostic Freethinker
Practical Philosopher

For free access to my earlier posts on voluntary simplicity, compulsive spending, debting, compulsive overeating and clutter write: vfr44@aol.com. Any opinion expressed here is that of my own and is not the opinion, recommendation or belief of any group or organization.

[koan]

Sorry Vfr, but there is actually five schools of Zen. However in Japan, there is only three, Rinzai, Soto and Uman, although the last is very small and akin to Rinzai.
Zen is the Japanese word for the Sanskrit, Dhyana. In China it is Cha'n and Korea Seon. It is popularly called Zen in the west because of the Japanese connection post WW11. In China and Korea, the five schools are not divided and it is usual for a Master to pick which is the best way for the Individual that will be most effective.