Zen and metaphysics (Jesus Christ, salvation, tradition, Buddhism, Mary)

[Victor]

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum...764#post726764

The above thread triggered me to venture into why Zen doesn't seem to lean toward metaphsysics?

Do they have an underlining disagreement with the more traditional movements?

[Engyo]

I would personally say it is more a bent towards being all cryptic and aloof than it is any sort of underlying disagreement. Are you familiar with koans?

[lilithu]

Hi Victor, namaste.

Originally Posted by Victor

The above thread triggered me to venture into why Zen doesn't seem to lean toward metaphsysics?

Do they have an underlining disagreement with the more traditional movements?

Not that I'm aware of. As diverse as the many schools of Buddhism are they are united in the acceptance of the four noble truths and the 8 fold path. They are united in their goal of attaining nirvana/nibbana.

The Buddha himself did not teach much on metaphysics. And he said that this wasn't because he didn't know the stuff but rather because we don't need to know it to attain nibbana.

Let me try to put it in Christian terms (this attempt may help or it may fail miserably). What is the fundamental teaching of Christianity? It is that salvation is thru Jesus Christ. If you take refuge in Christ you will be saved. If one accepts that, then is it necessary for a Christian to know the nature of the universe, or even the nature of God (trinity)? Is it necessary for a Christian to know whether or not Mary was immaculately conceived or whether the world was truly made in only 6 days or whether baptism should happen in infancy or later? (I'm just giving examples from common arguments.) These questions may be fun to address. And unfortunately arguments over some of these questions have resulted in bitter splits amongst Christians resulting in smaller and smaller groups. But I would argue that the the only thing that you need to all agree on is that salvation is thru Jesus Christ.

Similarly, all Buddhists agree that nibbana is thru the four noble truths and the 8-fold path. Zen focuses on a different way of practice, but I don't think its practitioners would say that there's a significant underlying disagreement.


I am curious, however, how this difference historically came about. If someone can please enlighten us.

[Victor]

Originally Posted by Engyo

I would personally say it is more a bent towards being all cryptic and aloof than it is any sort of underlying disagreement. Are you familiar with koans?

No, I'm not, do share.

[Victor]

Originally Posted by lilithu

Hi Victor, namaste.

Not that I'm aware of. As diverse as the many schools of Buddhism are they are united in the acceptance of the four noble truths and the 8 fold path. They are united in their goal of attaining nirvana/nibbana.

The Buddha himself did not teach much on metaphysics. And he said that this wasn't because he didn't know the stuff but rather because we don't need to know it to attain nibbana.

Let me try to put it in Christian terms (this attempt may help or it may fail miserably). What is the fundamental teaching of Christianity? It is that salvation is thru Jesus Christ. If you take refuge in Christ you will be saved. If one accepts that, then is it necessary for a Christian to know the nature of the universe, or even the nature of God (trinity)? Is it necessary for a Christian to know whether or not Mary was immaculately conceived or whether the world was truly made in only 6 days or whether baptism should happen in infancy or later? (I'm just giving examples from common arguments.) These questions may be fun to address. And unfortunately arguments over some of these questions have resulted in bitter splits amongst Christians resulting in smaller and smaller groups. But I would argue that the the only thing that you need to all agree on is that salvation is thru Jesus Christ.

Similarly, all Buddhists agree that nibbana is thru the four noble truths and the 8-fold path. Zen focuses on a different way of practice, but I don't think its practitioners would say that there's a significant underlying disagreement.


I am curious, however, how this difference historically came about. If someone can please enlighten us.

Can any of the different practices lead you away from ataining nirvana? I ask this because in Christianity, how you see God/Jesus Christ affects how you see salvation. So the smaller things can affect people's view of things.

[Engyo]

Actually NOT doing any practices are what generally cause one to move farther from rather than towards enlightenment.

Koans are teaching stories or riddles. They are designed to snap the mind out of it's established ruts and allow new viewpoints to be seen or understood. There is an RF thread on koans:
Koans

[Victor]

Originally Posted by Engyo

Actually NOT doing any practices are what generally cause one to move farther from rather than towards enlightenment.

Koans are teaching stories or riddles. They are designed to snap the mind out of it's established ruts and allow new viewpoints to be seen or understood. There is an RF thread on koans:
Koans

I'll check it out, thanks.

I'm a bit puzzeled though. In the thread I referenced you said:
Personally I view Buddhism as a practice - it is something one does, rather than something one "believes in" per se.

Did I misunderstand?

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by Victor

Can any of the different practices lead you away from ataining nirvana? I ask this because in Christianity, how you see God/Jesus Christ affects how you see salvation. So the smaller things can affect people's view of things.

It may affect how you see salvation, but does it affect whether or not you are saved?? Whatever your answer, hopefully you can see that there's a real difference between the two.

The Buddha taught that there are practices that can lead you astray. But the 8-fold path that he taught us is self-correcting, as it is based on empiricism. (And no path leads to permanent damnation.) I am unaware of any of the schools of Buddhism differing with each other so much that they claim people are being led astray by other schools. At most I think they would say that their way is best, not that the others are wrong.