How long will it be until I am enlightened? (translation, hell)

[YmirGF]

Originally Posted by gracie

i like the "you are already enlightened" answer, but it can ring hollow and become a catch-all answer.

You make some excellent points. I agree that "you are already enlightened" can ring hollow as it could give people the impression that they do not have to do anything to "get it". I do agree with Buddha that one has to let go of their preconceptions about what reality is, however, I diverge from his teaching considerably from there.

Originally Posted by gracie

my own practice has been to understand enlightenment not as something one comes to after a long time, but something which reveals itself day by day. one day gives us many opportunities to act with compassion, mindfulness, forgiveness, and responsibility. maybe these things we do right and the fruits of our right effort are themselves tastes of enlightenment...

What you are describing is not enlightenment. What you are describing is the process of illumination that eventually will precipitate formal enlightenment. "Formal" enlightenment is a gnosis point, for lack of a better word. Enlightenment is the act of spontaneously being confronted by the Oneness of Reality. One sees everything as a part of the whole and a sense of "self" changes considerably. In some ways, that sense of "self" does dissolve into this Spacious Oneness, but it is never lost, though perhaps a tiny bit overwhelmed. It is above all else a very humbling experience, as you feel you are an essential part of reality, but a very small part, nonetheless. It is sort of odd in retrospect that an expansion of consciousness could lead to a feeling of comparative insignificance. Again, ESSENTIAL, but quite insiginificant.


To say "you are already enlightened" is actually a word game. It is based in the realization that time as it is generally conceived, does NOT exist. In some ways, there actually is no past, nor is there any future. Without getting too deep, lol, we always view our days through the focal point of the present. To our senses, it is always NOW, regardless if NOW is the middle of the afternoon, at 3am or at sunrise. Regardless, at each time point, you will still see reality from the present perspective.

Be Here Now, like gravity, isn't just a good idea. It is the law. When individuals focus too much on the future or the past, they rob themselves of the power to act in the present. This might seem to be wildly off topic, but I assure you it is all part and parcel of enlightenment, and frankly, I don't give a damn what the books might say to the contrary. Contrary to popular belief, Buddhist and Taoist do not own enlightenment, although at one point they certainly had the keys. *giggle*

[ayani]

ok... so when one is enlightened, it's like a falling away of divisions, right? i hear alot of talk about "in the now", true. is enlightenment (buddhist/doaist) simply a new epiphanic understanding of time and seperateness?

[YmirGF]

Originally Posted by gracie

ok... so when one is enlightened, it's like a falling away of divisions, right? i hear alot of talk about "in the now", true. is enlightenment (buddhist/doaist) simply a new epiphanic understanding of time and seperateness?

Melting would be a more apt description. How to say... that gnosis point I was talking about is sort of like learning the ability to subract oneself from the equation of time. It is almost an incidental effect. There is not really a falling away, per se. It is more of an intuitive giant step. It's like you notice a door in front of you that you never noticed before. You reach out, metaphorically speaking, and open the door... and then "walk" right through.

The individual may not understand what they are doing initially, but if they are able to maintain the experiece the point quickly comes home to roost. Initially, enlightenment is like a well oiled marble. It takes some time to grasp it as it always slips through your "fingers". That is why meditation is somewhat essential as it provides the "strength" or "focus of will" that allows the individual to "hold" the experience. The reason for this is that the experience itself is somewhat alien and there is no practical way to prepare for it. It is not something that can be imagined or intellectually postulated. Ultimately it is something that cannot be really described, and that is why it must be directly experienced, first hand.

I am a bit leery of agreeing with epiphany or revelation. It is strictly a case of perception, and subsequent realisation. It is sort of like looking at an artwork and just "getting it". You know, you notice something, "the light goes on" and you see an aspect that you never understood before. If that makes it a "revelation" then I suppose it is. I just NEVER see things from my perspective AS a revelation, as that implies a directed scenario that I am only an observer within. To my mind, why bother, as if reality is handed to you on a golden platter there is little point in reaching out with you hand to take it.

That being said, yes, I am afraid, the individual does just "connect the dots" and understand many things almost instantly, but even that time frame is relatively meaningless. There is no time, remember, lol. Many other things take some time to digest. Other aspect take further subsequent experiences to fully grasp. The total kick in the head is when you realize that Enlightenment is not the end. It is only the beginning.

[koan]

Cut of all thinking. What is left?
If you try and work out what's left, you haven't cut off all thinking.

[Engyo]

Koan -

Zen is one approach, and a valid approach. But it isn't the only approach........The Buddha taught 84,000 Dharma gates.....

[PureX]

Originally Posted by Goat

How long will it be until I am enlightened?

*pointing toward the moon on a cloudy day*

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by nutshell

4 years 3 months 12 days and 43 seconds

pay attention or u might miss it

Originally Posted by Moon Woman

Wise guy.

Actually, nutshell's answer seems perfectly appropriate for the question.

[Random]

You will be enlightened when the question "How Long Will It Be Until I Am Enlightened?" ends.

[koan]

The more you search, the further away it becomes.
A monk after finishing his meal, said to the Abbot, " I've been in this monestry for some time now and you promised to show me the way to enlightenment." The master replied "Yes I have. Have you finished your meal?" the monk replied "Yes" the master said " Good, now go and wash your bowl!"