What do all Wiccan's believe? (Earth, beliefs, experience, atheist)

[Mike182]

Originally Posted by MaddLlama

I definitely disagree. There is very little evidence to support the idea that Wicca existed before Gardener, and much more evidence in support of Wicca being a very young religion.

For starters, nobody other than Gardener has any idea if Dorothy Clutterbuck or New Forest even existed, and if they did, how old it even was. Not to mention the fact that most of the "history" of Witchcraft provided by Gardener was later proved to be wrong. Gardener's "Old Religion" has much more in common with Ceremonial Magic than it does with any ancient Pagan belief system. In fact, Gardener was a good friend of Crowley's, a Mason, and a member of the OTO. The influence is clear. Yes, Wicca does incorporate things from the original "Pagans", but only tiny pieces here and there that were fit together in an entirely different context. It is very very very unlikely that even if New Forest did exist, that they were practicing anything that was older than the 19th century. And if something did exist before the 1950's, then it was undoubtedly heavily influenced by the writings of Margret Murray (who was referenced a lot by early Wiccan authors), which have been completely discredited.

Gardener definitely did not take the rede from Thompson's poem. And, the poem is not the Wiccan Rede.

ah! New Forest! that is an interesting topic to discuss... let me pull some notes out... but generally speaking, the New Forest Coven didn't exist as an actual Coven of witches, and certainly nothing of ancient origin or practice.

it's late over here and i'm about to go to sleep, plus i don't have my notes handy, but i will post some stuff on the New Forest Coven probably late tomorrow evening.

[MaddLlama]

Originally Posted by Mike182

ah! New Forest! that is an interesting topic to discuss... let me pull some notes out... but generally speaking, the New Forest Coven didn't exist as an actual Coven of witches, and certainly nothing of ancient origin or practice.

it's late over here and i'm about to go to sleep, plus i don't have my notes handy, but i will post some stuff on the New Forest Coven probably late tomorrow evening.

I will be really interested to see what you have! I tried for a while to find some info on the subject but kept coming up empty handed. Though, living in the UK I'm sure you have more resources at your disposal. XD

[Mike182]

Originally Posted by MaddLlama

I will be really interested to see what you have! I tried for a while to find some info on the subject but kept coming up empty handed. Though, living in the UK I'm sure you have more resources at your disposal. XD

i have a 40 year old ex Gardnerian Wiccan who spent 20 years researching the subject to chat with for 4 hours each week

ok, before i go to bed, i'll give you two spoilers that will point you the direction you will approve of...

Rudolf Hess and Ian Flemming...

enjoy

[Reverend Rick]

I would like to hear comments on the following statements.

It takes a Witch to make a Witch.

One can look in the mirror and simply affirm they are a Witch all by themselves.

[MaddLlama]

Originally Posted by Reverend Rick

I would like to hear comments on the following statements.

It takes a Witch to make a Witch.

One can look in the mirror and simply affirm they are a Witch all by themselves.

That depends on what you mean by that. If you mean that a person can't call themselves a witch unless they were trained by another, then I certainly disagree. With practice witchcraft is something anyone can learn, however it's not something everyone should learn. Being a witch has nothing to do with what coven you belong to, or who taught you.

[Mike182]

Originally Posted by Reverend Rick

I would like to hear comments on the following statements.

It takes a Witch to make a Witch.

One can look in the mirror and simply affirm they are a Witch all by themselves.

yes, any student of anything needs a teacher, be that a teacher who is physically there or a teacher who has written literature that you are learning from.

i don't see the bearing of this on Wicca though...

[Dr. Nosophoros]

Couldn't tell you that but I do have a healthy respect for the pre-Christian beliefs in the power of nature and reverence of it, "pagan" holidays etc. Gerald Gardner (generally said to be the father of modern Wicca) bought rituals from Aleister Crowley and changed them to suit his needs, interestingly enough most Wiccans I've come across seem to want to distance themselves from Crowley, don't quite understand that one.

[MaddLlama]

BTW Mike, I did read those two wiki articles. I have to say that is definately an interesting connection. And, I am of course still anxious to see your New Forest notes. =D

[bflydad]

Originally Posted by MaddLlama

I definitely disagree. There is very little evidence to support the idea that Wicca existed before Gardener, and much more evidence in support of Wicca being a very young religion.

I never said Wicca existed before Gardner (also, can you please start spelling his name correctly, please). I said Wicca had roots that existed before Gardner. I agree Wicca is a young religion and getting younger everyday.

Originally Posted by MaddLlama

For starters, nobody other than Gardener has any idea if Dorothy Clutterbuck or New Forest even existed, and if they did, how old it even was.

any idea? hunh? How about Heselton? Obviously there is no first hand absolute proof but to say no one has any idea is just wrong.

Originally Posted by MaddLlama

Not to mention the fact that most of the "history" of Witchcraft provided by Gardener was later proved to be wrong. Gardener's "Old Religion" has much more in common with Ceremonial Magic than it does with any ancient Pagan belief system. In fact, Gardener was a good friend of Crowley's, a Mason, and a member of the OTO. The influence is clear.

I agree

Originally Posted by MaddLlama

Yes, Wicca does incorporate things from the original "Pagans", but only tiny pieces here and there that were fit together in an entirely different context.

Which original Pagans are you referring to? and which "tiny pieces"? a reverence for nature? how is the context different? a belief in a God and Goddess? how is the context differe