What do all Wiccan's believe? (Earth, beliefs, experience, atheist)

[Azakel]

Originally Posted by bflydad

I will admit that I had to look this up before I responded. Most texts I've seen on Wicca only quote "An it harm none, do what thou wilt" as the Wiccan Rede. I checked Wikipedia on this, and there is a reference to a much longer published poem also called the Wiccan Rede which became public a long time after Valiente published the 8 word Rede. As a result, there is a dispute as to whether the poem is authentic, made up, or a combination and in any case whether Valiente and Gardner were aware of the poem when they first mentioned the 8-word Rede.

I'm curious though why you think a Wiccan should be able to recite the entire Rede (or any other text). I don't know too many Christian that can recite the entire Gospels or Jews that can recite the 5 Books of Moses. I believe it is more important to understand the practices and beliefs of Wicca than to be able to recite text verbatim.

Maybe the longer one did come latter, I didn't know that thanks. I don't really feel they need to, it's just all I every get is bits and pieces when I asks them what they believe and that all they give my, they don't even give me the 8 word rede, and I don't think a Christian should know the books all by heart, in any religion that hard to do, they at lest can say the Lords Prayer. And yes I said all I ever hear is the two saying I posted, but that only by a small few.

[bflydad]

Originally Posted by Son_of_Amaterasu

it's just all I every get is bits and pieces when I asks them what they believe and that all they give my, they don't even give me the 8 word rede

Question for you since you are not a Wicca: when you hear a Wiccan say this, does it make you think their religion is less valid or even possibly that they don't have a religion?

I ask the question because I think that is one of the problem with being creedless. While there are Wiccans who have thought through their beliefs on (not a complete list): (1) a soul, (2) life after death, (3) what it means to "live rightly", (4) what the Wiccan Rede and the Rule of Three really mean for daily conduct, (5) deity(s), (6) why bad things happen, and (7) why we are here.

As a result I think people often consider them ignorant "fluffy bunnies" when in reality they are no different then most Christians. However, all a Christian has to say is that he is a Christian and his answer to the points above is determined whether he/she knows it or not.

The argument has been made that Wicca is more about practices than beliefs (which I agree with) and as a result, we don't need to worry about beliefs (which I disagree with). Although most of the time, people are ok with not knowing the answers to these questions (other than perhaps looking stupid), when they need to know (e.g. when a loved one or a fellow soldier dies), they really need to know not start to figure it out.

[MaddLlama]

Originally Posted by bflydad

I will admit that I had to look this up before I responded. Most texts I've seen on Wicca only quote "An it harm none, do what thou wilt" as the Wiccan Rede. I checked Wikipedia on this, and there is a reference to a much longer published poem also called the Wiccan Rede which became public a long time after Valiente published the 8 word Rede. As a result, there is a dispute as to whether the poem is authentic, made up, or a combination and in any case whether Valiente and Gardner were aware of the poem when they first mentioned the 8-word Rede.

I'm curious though why you think a Wiccan should be able to recite the entire Rede (or any other text). I don't know too many Christian that can recite the entire Gospels or Jews that can recite the 5 Books of Moses. I believe it is more important to understand the practices and beliefs of Wicca than to be able to recite text verbatim.

That's probably part of the problem - the people you're getting your information from are apparently not very well researched. Really, there is no dispute over the authorship of the poem or the rede we have today, it's just that a lot of Pagans aren't totally up on their Wiccan history at the time around its inception (roughly 1959 to 1979).

The document you're talking about is not the Wiccan rede. It is called "The Wiccan Credo", or "The Rede of the Wiccae". It is a seperate document, a poem written by Lady Gwen Thompson and published sometime in the early 70's. Doreen Valentine is often misrepresented as the author, however she simply took Thompson's poem and published it in her book in 1978 (In Witchcraft for Tomorrow). However, this poem is not the original rede intended by Gardener, it's just a poem that happens to state the rede at the end.
Actually, Gardener's books never mention the rede as we know it today. The 8 words of the Wiccan rede are a condensed version of this paragraph from his 1959 book The Meaning of Witchcraft:

[Witches] are inclined to the morality of the legendary Good King Pausol, "Do what you like so long as you harm no one". But they believe a certain law to be important, "You must not use magic for anything which will cause harm to anyone, and if, to prevent a greater wrong being done, you must discommode someone, you must do it only in a way which will abate the harm.

The condensed version was originally coined by Valentine, written in The ABC's of Witchcraft. Though, that version wasn't as pretty, and I suspect that what happened is Thompson "pretty-fied" Valentines statement for her poem, and that's what Wiccans use today (because, it's pretty).

And, as an interesting bit of info, the Lycian tradition extends the rede to read "If it harm none do as you will; an it cause harm, do as you must".

"Rede" also does not mean law, and a lot of Wiccans are under this impression. The term "rede" means "counsel" or "advice". And, that is exactly what the Wiccan rede is. It does not command Wiccans to "harm none", but rather advises that any action that doesn't harm another is acceptable.

[MaddLlama]

Also, if anyone is interested in Gardeners "Old Laws", there's a nicely formatted version here:
http://wicca.timerift.net/laws/161.shtml

[bflydad]

Originally Posted by MaddLlama

That's probably part of the problem - the people you're getting your information from are apparently not very well researched. Really, there is no dispute over the authorship of the poem or the rede we have today, it's just that a lot of Pagans aren't totally up on their Wiccan history at the time around its inception (roughly 1959 to 1979).

The document you're talking about is not the Wiccan rede. It is called "The Wiccan Credo", or "The Rede of the Wiccae". It is a seperate document, a poem written by Lady Gwen Thompson and published sometime in the early 70's. Doreen Valentine is often misrepresented as the author, however she simply took Thompson's poem and published it in her book in 1978 (In Witchcraft for Tomorrow). However, this poem is not the original rede intended by Gardener, it's just a poem that happens to state the rede at the end.
Actually, Gardener's books never mention the rede as we know it today. The 8 words of the Wiccan rede are a condensed version of this paragraph from his 1959 book The Meaning of Witchcraft:

The condensed version was originally coined by Valentine, written in The ABC's of Witchcraft. Though, that version wasn't as pretty, and I suspect that what happened is Thompson "pretty-fied" Valentines statement for her poem, and that's what Wiccans use today (because, it's pretty).

And, as an interesting bit of info, the Lycian tradition extends the rede to read "If it harm none do as you will; an it cause harm, do as you must".

"Rede" also does not mean law, and a lot of Wiccans are under this impression. The term "rede" means "counsel" or "advice". And, that is exactly what the Wiccan rede is. It does not command Wiccans to "harm none", but rather advises that any action that doesn't harm another is acceptable.

True but what I read said that Thompson ascribed it to her grandmother, Adriana Porter (who died in 1946), (with the 8-word rede in it) which would pre-date Gardner. So it sounds like it is disputed to me. When you say it is not in dispute, who are you referring to?

[Mike182]

Originally Posted by Son_of_Amaterasu

Mike182 took the words right out of my mouth.

thanks

I went to trade school with a Wiccan, and one thing he told me was that he(and most other Wiccan) don't consider one Wiccan till they have been Initiation into a Coven

yes, this is a split between Gardner's old laws and Starhawk/American liberalised Wicca.

Gardner's old laws contain a lot of references to potential burning times if witches are discovered... so only trustworthy people were initiated into Covens, members took magical names, and it was all kept very secret... being in a Coven defined you as a Wiccan, there was no definition outside of the Coven as far as Gardner was concerned.

when Wicca went public, and was turned liberal and personalised in America, people had the freedom of information and expression free from religious persecution to be their own Coven, you could be your own High Priest and High Priestess, and you could even learn the craft through books and literature instead of a teacher.

and I read some where that the Law of three use to just be the Law of two, till during a Press Conference when Wicca first started and people where all like 'it's evil' they changed it to the Three, to show that they mean no harm(I wish I could find that link again).

i've not heard of this before, if you can find the link i would be interested in reading it!

And one more thing, most people that I know that call themselve Wiccan can't even reside the full Wiccan Rede or even anything close, all I every here is, 'Do what thu will as long as it harm non' and "In perfect love and perfect trust', I know there a lot more to it.

i certainly can't recall the whole darned thing, and i wouldn't expect someone to learn a great long poem off by heart, but a knowledge of the gist of the poem and having a copy of it would be expected i think.

[MaddLlama]

Originally Posted by bflydad

True but what I read said that Thompson ascribed it to her grandmother, Adriana Porter (who died in 1946), (with the 8-word rede in it) which would pre-date Gardner. So it sounds like it is disputed to me. When you say it is not in dispute, who are you referring to?

The thing you need to understand is that until recently, and certainly back in the 60's and 70's, people (including Gardener and Valentine) really believed that Wicca was an ancient religion. Or, at least that's what Gardener wanted everyone else to believe. However, today we know this isn't true. We do know that Wicca was a religion largely of the invention of Gardener, with bits and pieces taken from other sources. We don't know anything about the coven he claimed to belong to, though.
So, Thompson's claims about the history of the poem and her grandmother being a witch was a product of a Wiccan subculture where everyone had a wiccan grandmother. Being that Wicca is a modern religion, Thompson's claims are extremely dubious.

[Azakel]

Originally Posted by bflydad

Question for you since you are not a Wicca: when you hear a Wiccan say this, does it make you think their religion is less valid or even possibly that they don't have a religion?

I ask the question because I think that is one of the problem with being creedless. While there are Wiccans who have thought through their beliefs on (not a complete list): (1) a soul, (2) life after death, (3) what it means to "live rightly", (4) what the Wiccan Rede and the Rule of Three really mean for daily conduct, (5) deity(s), (6) why bad things happen, and (7) why we are here.

As a result I think people often consider them ignorant "fluffy bunnies" when in reality they are no different then most Christians. However, all a Christian has to say is that he is a Christian and his answer to the points above is determined whether he/she knows it or not.

The argument has been made that Wicca is more about practices than beliefs (which I agree with) and as a result, we don't need to worry about beliefs (which I disagree with). Although most of the time, people are ok with not knowing the answers to these questions (other than perhaps looking stupid), when they need to know (e.g. when a loved one or a fellow soldier dies), they really need to know not start to figure it out.

I don't feel that there religion is any less valid then mine. I just think that must of them use the word wicca because they want to be different, not saying that all are like this but I have met some. I think the same go with all people, some people see a religion and think it's cool so they call them self it with out knowing anything about it because it sound cool. I also say it goes for Christians too, some my just say they are becaus