"A Christian Speaks of Wicca" article (Jesus, hell)

[James the Persian]

I was unsurprised to find the author was Orthodox. I belive that I have tried to make similar points on this forum also (though I perhaps wouldn't have gone quite as far in some of the language he uses). We do not believe that all non-Orthodox or even non-Christians will be damned and our Church Fathers spoke on the salvation of pre-Christian, pagan Greek philosophers. I don't see how their position vis a vis my God is any different to that of a good, modern neo-Pagan. It's safe to say that one big difference we have with some other Christians is in our understanding of 'No man comes to the Father except by me'. Many Christians see this as being equivalent to 'Follow me or be damned'. Whereas we see it as, 'Whoever comes to God has been drawn by Me, whether they know it or not.'

I hope my input here is appreciated. I'm staunchly Christian, as most of you no doubt know, but I see no benefit in villifying pagans and nor do I have the power or the right to damn anybody to hell. On the contrary, I am called to love all whether they agree with me or not. If only all Christians believed as we (generally speaking) do, you Wiccans might not have so many problems with Christians.

James

[Feathers in Hair]

Your input is always appreciated!

[michel]

Originally Posted by JamesThePersian

I was unsurprised to find the author was Orthodox. I belive that I have tried to make similar points on this forum also (though I perhaps wouldn't have gone quite as far in some of the language he uses). We do not believe that all non-Orthodox or even non-Christians will be damned and our Church Fathers spoke on the salvation of pre-Christian, pagan Greek philosophers. I don't see how their position vis a vis my God is any different to that of a good, modern neo-Pagan. It's safe to say that one big difference we have with some other Christians is in our understanding of 'No man comes to the Father except by me'. Many Christians see this as being equivalent to 'Follow me or be damned'. Whereas we see it as, 'Whoever comes to God has been drawn by Me, whether they know it or not.'

I hope my input here is appreciated. I'm staunchly Christian, as most of you no doubt know, but I see no benefit in villifying pagans and nor do I have the power or the right to damn anybody to hell. On the contrary, I am called to love all whether they agree with me or not. If only all Christians believed as we (generally speaking) do, you Wiccans might not have so many problems with Christians.

James

I am not quite so 'staunchly' Christian as you James, but your message of "I am called to love all whether they agree with me or not" is the same driving force in my life.

[angellous_evangellous]

Originally Posted by JamesThePersian

I was unsurprised to find the author was Orthodox. I belive that I have tried to make similar points on this forum also (though I perhaps wouldn't have gone quite as far in some of the language he uses). We do not believe that all non-Orthodox or even non-Christians will be damned and our Church Fathers spoke on the salvation of pre-Christian, pagan Greek philosophers. I don't see how their position vis a vis my God is any different to that of a good, modern neo-Pagan. It's safe to say that one big difference we have with some other Christians is in our understanding of 'No man comes to the Father except by me'. Many Christians see this as being equivalent to 'Follow me or be damned'. Whereas we see it as, 'Whoever comes to God has been drawn by Me, whether they know it or not.'

I hope my input here is appreciated. I'm staunchly Christian, as most of you no doubt know, but I see no benefit in villifying pagans and nor do I have the power or the right to damn anybody to hell. On the contrary, I am called to love all whether they agree with me or not. If only all Christians believed as we (generally speaking) do, you Wiccans might not have so many problems with Christians.

James

I have heard No*s say, "We know where the Spirit is, but we do not know where he is not."

[James the Persian]

Originally Posted by angellous_evangellous

I have heard No*s say, "We know where the Spirit is, but we do not know where he is not."

This is quite right. We know that salvation can be found in the Church but we do not know that it cannot be found outside of Her. All, in our beliefs, were created in the image of God and are able to come to Him even outside of our faith, though we believe this route is more difficult. Obviously, then, Wiccans are not excluded. I'd also point out that we believe that more is expected of us because we have received more. It might well be, then, that it is harder for some Orthodox to attain salvation than it is for some outside our faith.

James

[Ciscokid]

C.S. Lewis stated something very similar in his very famous book Mere Christianity:

"There are people in other religions who are being led by God's secret influence to concentrate on those parts of their religion which are in agreement with Christianity, and who thus belong to Christ without knowing it. For example a Buddhist of good will may be led to concentrate more and more on the Buddhist teaching about mercy and to leave in the background (though he might still say he believed) the Buddhist teaching on certain points. Many of the good Pagans long before Christ's birth may have been in this position."

[James the Persian]

Originally Posted by Ciscokid

C.S. Lewis stated something very similar in his very famous book Mere Christianity:

This is no great surprise. The only way C.S. Lewis could have been much more Orthodox than he was would have been to get Chrismated. If anyone is an argument for the possibility of those outside the Church (from our perspective) to be able to come to the Truth then he is it.

James