Wicca and the OTO

[Octavia156]

I wonder how many Wiccans are aware of the True history of their Order:
Gerald Gardner & O.T.O. | Rodney Orpheus

Gerald Gardener was an initiate of the OTO, and was chartered by Aleister Crowley to form a Camp of Minervals to act as a preliminary school of instruction in the basic Philosophy of Thelema and ritual magick.

This camp of Minervals became the religion of Wicca.

[Troublemane]

There are other roots for modern ideas of Wicca. In fact the name derives from other sources besides Gardner. As far as I know, Gardner's system was always called 'witchcraft', not wicca.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_and_School_of_Wicca

[enchanted_one1975]

All religions were conceived at one time. Just because some came to being in the last century doesn't make them any less valid.

[Gentoo]

Yes, what's the point to this OP?

[Azakel]

This is out of place and not needed in the Wiccan DIR. Take it some where else. DO people have a problem reading the rules about the DIR forums. It's come to a point where it seem like there is no reason to even have then any more. If all where going to get is people from a different religion coming in and telling other what there religion 'truly' is and dictate about a religion that's not there's then what's the point???

[Mindmaster]

I'm not a pagan (or at least I don't consider myself one) but I have been shoulder surfing today. My first comment is very simple:

Historical providence matters none to the non-conventional spiritual movements. They don't need a two-thousand year lineage to determine their path. What works for someone is not determined by 'the word' of others in this instance so past history is irrelevant.

Second:

Practical Wicca shares elements with western occultism simply because it works. A Wicca as very much as likely to practice candle magic, the same lesser banishing ritual, and other practices just the same as I. But, none of these are practices required to be a Wiccan. The OTO didn't invent anything but a few reasons to trap some rubes into homo-erotic encounters. (Not that I have problems with homosexuals!) What you confuse with identification really is just the fact that Wicca didn't need to reinvent hammers, screwdrivers, and nails. All of these commonalities are similarities in the toolbox nothing more. Gardner didn't reinvent what worked, and much like others before him used what he found already effective.

The worst stealer, and borrower BTW is Crowley. Crowley created nothing new or original, but rather repackaged and stamped his name on it. He's the proverbial quirky magus, but also horrible with innovation. Great at compilation, trail, and promotion however.

The common lesser banishing ritual of the pentagram comes from at least as old as Eliphas Levi (probably existed even earlier!), candle magic has been done since ancient times, as has divination via gazing or scrying. Sex magic (which OTO loves) really has it's raw roots in eastern Tantra which existed thousands of years before OTO existed. Not saying they aren't doing anything worthwhile, but certainly they are ripping off their predecessors as much as anyone else.

Third:

Wicca is a faith. It exists nearly entirely outside of any particular ritual practice per say. Much like a Catholic is still Catholic when they do not attend mass. It's the belief in a particular divine hierarchy that defines a religion. Different groups don't use the same ritual or mystical processes in all cases, but there are several common traits across the whole group.

Fourth:

I am not a Wiccan, but I have studied the origins of most of these practices. Feel free to add if you find anything missing or in error.

[Octavia156]

Originally Posted by Mindmaster

I'm not a pagan (or at least I don't consider myself one) but I have been shoulder surfing today. My first comment is very simple:

Historical providence matters none to the non-conventional spiritual movements. They don't need a two-thousand year lineage to determine their path. What works for someone is not determined by 'the word' of others in this instance so past history is irrelevant.

Thats fine if you want to create your own path... but to subscribe to a religion and not have a full knowledge and understanding of its history and roots, or at least see the importance of researching it are acting under ignorance and blind faith.

Practical Wicca shares elements with western occultism simply because it works. A Wicca as very much as likely to practice candle magic, the same lesser banishing ritual, and other practices just the same as I. But, none of these are practices required to be a Wiccan. The OTO didn't invent anything but a few reasons to trap some rubes into homo-erotic encounters. (Not that I have problems with homosexuals!)

Are you a member of OTO that you know so much about its trappings?


You know there's nothing worse than some idiot who uses heresay as an argument when he has little to NO experience of what he is talking about. Get your facts straight - else you just look stupid.

The worst stealer, and borrower BTW is Crowley. Crowley created nothing new or original, but rather repackaged and stamped his name on it. He's the proverbial quirky magus, but also horrible with innovation. Great at compilation, trail, and promotion however.

I respectfully disagree there, the BEST borrower and stealer was Sir Aleister Crowley. Name another who has provided so much valuable instruction on modern occult science?

The common lesser banishing ritual of the pentagram comes from at least as old as Eliphas Levi (probably existed even earlier!), candle magic has been done since ancient times, as has divination via gazing or scrying. Sex magic (which OTO loves) really has it's raw roots in eastern Tantra which existed thousands of years before OTO existed. Not saying they aren't doing anything worthwhile, but certainly they are ripping off their predecessors as much as anyone else.

Does a pianist 'rip off' Mozart when he plays his music? Of course not..... if the pianist claims HE wrote the music then it is. Thats exactly what Gardener did. Don't believe me? Compare the Wiccan 3rd Degree ceremony to the Thelemic Gnostic Mass. Crowley never claimed to ahve written any of Levi, Solomon or Agrippa's work.... however Gardener directly stole Crowley's words and never gave him proper credit.

Third:

Wicca is a faith. It exists nearly entirely outside of any particular ritual practice per say. Much like a Catholic is still Catholic when they do not attend mass. It's the belief in a particular divine hierarchy that defines a religion. Different groups don't use the same ritual or mystical processes in all cases, but there are several common traits across the whole group.

Fourth:

I am not a Wiccan, but I have studied the origins of most of these practices. Feel free to add if you find anything missing or in error.

What most Wiccan's and yourself by the looks of things, do not know or realise is that 90% of the Gardenian rituals and ceremonies are completely plagarised from 3 Thelemic sources.
1. Liber XV - The Gnostic Mass
2. Liber AL vel Legis - The Book of the Law
3. OTO MoE Initiations

This goes beyond the 'borrowing' you describe which is more akin to paying homage to things that work.