Vedanta and science (Buddhism, reincarnation, followers, translation, evolution)

[Seyorni]

Mahesh, you are not hearing what Aupmanyav is saying. You're trying to make Physics/Reality conform to the rules familiar to you in this world.

You go on about "purpose," as if this were a necessary component of Reality; as if it were a yardstick to use in the assessment of Divine intention. It is not.

Purpose and intention are human constructs. They're useful tools in negotiating our own little 3-D world but have no place in Quantum or Relativity theory, ie: Reality.

You go on about time and history, about what is to come, about the purpose and impact of what went before.
Time is fine when you're talking about 3rd state perception, but, as we perceive it, has no place in metaphysics. The first few frames of a film do not cease to exist when the projector moves on to subsequent frames. Every event in the film exists simultaneously. Our inability to comprehend more than one at a time does not affect this reality. Everything that ever happened, is happening or will happen is happening Now , there is no past, no future. These are illusions. The wars, the injustice, the supernovae, the Avataras, the extinction of man -- all are/were/will be --simultaneously.

A "barren philosophy?" Are you judging facts by the degree of comfort or discomfort they engender?
Why would God create such misperception? Silly question. Why is a flatworm incapable of understanding the historical impact of the Code of Hammurabi? Why would you assume our perception should be unlimited? You assume we are exceptional -- paragons of Consciousness. We are not.

You ask why we should behave if our world is illusory; what purpose our rules of propriety serve.

We must live in the world we perceive. Like a pilot making a landing by instrument in the dead of night. The numbers and dials he relies in are not accurate representations of the reality without, they are abstractions which he must rely on due to his limited perception.
Likewise, the experience of the world delivered by out five senses is not an accurate representation of reality. They are abstractions, useful in steering through the branes, possibilities and energy fields that comprise Real Reality.

Making a definitive assessment of the world from our little 3-D cockpit is absurd. More so basing a meaningful, purposive, philosophy on this illusion.

[mahesh]

To think that there is no place for a personal God (Ishvara) in Advaita Vedanta is a misunderstanding of the philosophy. Ishvara is, in an ultimate sense, described as "false" because Brahman appears as Ishvara only due to the curtain of Maya. However, just as the world is true in the pragmatic level, similarly, Ishvara is also pragmatically true. Just as the world is not absolutely false, Ishvara is also not absolutely false. He is the distributor of the fruits of one's Karma. In order to make the pragmatic life successful, it is very important to believe in God and worship him.

Life in the world can be divided into two groups Kshara and Akshara. Kshara refers to life with destructible bodies while Akshara have indestructible body.

In the pragmatic level, whenever we talk about Brahman, we are in fact talking about God. God is the highest knowledge theoretically possible in that level. Devotion (Bhakti) will cancel the effects of bad Karma and will make a person closer to the true knowledge by purifying his mind. Slowly, the difference between the worshipper and the worshipped decreases and upon true knowledge, liberation occurs.

[mahesh]

Ishvara (denoted by Vishnu-Narayana) is the Supreme Cosmic Spirit who maintains complete control over the Universe and all the sentient beings, which together also form the pan-organistic body of Ishvara. The triad of Ishvara along with the universe and the sentient beings is Brahman, which signifies the completeness of existence. Ishvara is Parabrahman endowed with innumerable auspicious qualities (Kalyana Gunas). Ishvara is perfect, omniscient, omnipresent, incorporeal, independent, creator of the universe, its active ruler and also the eventual destroyer. He is causeless, eternal and unchangeable — and is yet the material and the efficient cause of the universe and sentient beings. He is both immanent (like whiteness in milk) and transcendent (like a watch-maker independent of a watch). He is the subject of worship. He is the basis of morality and giver of the fruits of one's Karma. He rules the world with His Māyā — His divine power.
Ishvara is considered to have a 2-fold characteristic: he is the indweller of all beings and all beings also reside in Ishvara.

[edit] Antarvyāpi

When Ishvara is thought of as the indweller of all beings, he is referred to as the paramātmān, or the innermost self of all beings. Ishvara is also the self for the non-conscious Universe.
He who inhabits water, yet is within water, whom water does not know, whose body water is and who controls water from within—He is your Self, the Inner Controller, the Immortal.
He who inhabits the sun, yet is within the sun, whom the sun does not know, whose body the sun is and who controls the sun from within—He is your Self, the Inner Controller, the Immortal - Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 3.7.4-14

[edit] Bahurvyāpi

When Ishvara is thought of as the all encomposing and the residence of all beings i.e. all beings reside in Ishvara, he is referred to as the paramapurusha. The sentient beings and the insentient universe which form part of the pan-organistic body of Ishvara are encapsulated by Ishvara.
Sarvam kalv idam Brahma Chandogya Upanishad
Isavasyam idam sarvam Isa Upanishad

[edit] Chit

Chit is the world of sentient beings, or of entities possessing consciousness. It is similar to the Purusha of Samkhya system. The sentient beings are called Jīvās and they are possessors of individual consciousness as denoted by "I". The scope of Chit refers to all beings with an "I" conscousness, or more specifically self-consciousness. Therefore all entities which are aware of their own individual existence are denoted as chit. This is called Dharmi-jnana or substantive consciousness. The sentient beings also possess varying levels of Dharma-bhuta-jnana or attributive consciousness
The jivas possess three different types of existence:

• Nityas, or the eternally free Jivas who were never in Samsara
• Muktas, or the Jivas that were once in Samsara but are free
• Baddhas, or the Jivas which are still in Samsara

[edit] Achit

Achit is the world of insentient entities as denoted by matter or more specifically the non-conscious Universe. It is similar to the Prakriti of Samkhya system

[edit] Brahman

There is a subtle difference between Ishvara and Brahman. Ishvara is the substantive part of Brahman, while jivas and jagat are its modes (also secondary attributes), and kalyanagunas(auspicious attributes) are the primary attributes. The secondary attributes become manifested in the effect state when the world is differentiated by name and form. The kalyanagunas are eternally manifest.
Brahman is the description of Ishvara when comprehended in fullness i.e. a simultaneous vision of Ishvara with all his modes and attributes.
The relationship between Brahman and Jivas, Jagat is expressed by Rāmānujā in numerous ways. He calls this relationship as one of:

• Sarira/Sariri (body/indweller);
• Prakara/Prakari (attribute or mode/substance);
• Sesha/Seshi (Owned/owner);
• Amsa/Amsi (part/whole);
• Adharadeya/Sambandha (supporter/supported);
• Niyamya/Niyanta (controlled/controller);
• Rasksya/Raksaka (redeemed/redeemer);

These relationships can be experienced holding Brahman as the father, son, mother, sister, wife, husband, friend, lover and lord. Hence, Brahman is a personal being.

• What does Nirguna Brahman mean?

Ramanuja argues vehemently against understanding Brahman as one without attributes. Brahman is Nirguna in the sense that impure qualities do not touch it. He provides three valid reasons for staking such a claim:
Sruti/ Sabda Pramana: All sruti and sabda's denoting Brahman always list either attributes inherent to Brahman or not inherent to Brahman. The Sruti's only seek to deny Brahman from possessing impure and defective qualities which affect the world of beings. There is evidence in the Sruti's to this regard. The Sruti's proclaim Brahman to be beyond the tri-gunas which are observed. However, Brahman possess infinite number of transcendental attributes, the evidence of which is given in vakhyas like "satyam jnanam anantam Brahma"
Pratyaksha Pramana: Ramanuja states that "a contentless cognition is impossible". And all cognition must necessarily involve knowing Brahman through the attributes of Brahman.
Anumana Pramana: Ramanuja states that "Nirgunatva" itself becomes an attribute of Brahman on account of the uniqueness of no other entity being Nirguna.

[mahesh]

Theory of Existence

VishishtAdvaita adheres to a system of complete reality. The three ontological entities i.e. Ishvara, Chit and Achit are fundamentally real. It upholds the doctrine of Satkaryavada as against Asatkaryavada.
Briefly,

• Satkaryavada is pre-existence of the effect in the cause. It maintains that karya (effect) is sat or real. It is present in the karana (cause) in a potential form, even before its manifestation.

• Asatkaryavada is non-existence of the effect in the cause. It maintains that karya (effect) is asat or unreal until it comes into being. Every effect, then, is a new beginning and is not born out of cause.

More specifically, the effect is a modification of what exists in the cause and doesnot involve new entities coming into existence. This is called as parinamavada or evolution of effect from the cause. This doctrine is common to the Samkhya system and VishishtAdvaita system. The Samkhya system adheres to Prakriti-Parinama vada whereas Vishishtadvaita is a modified form of Brahma-Parinama vada.

[edit] Kārya and kāraṇa

The kāraṇa (cause) and kārya (effect) in Vishishtadvaita is different form other systems of Indian Philosophy. Brahman is both the kāraṇa(cause) and the kārya(effect). Brahman as the cause does not become the Universe as the effect.
Brahman is assigned two kāraṇatvas (ways of being the cause):

1. Nimitta kāraṇatva — Being the Efficient/ Instrumental cause. For example, a goldsmith is assigned Nimitta kāraṇatva as he acts as the maker of jewellery and thus becomes the jewellery's Instrumental cause.

1. Upādāna kāraṇatva — Being the material cause. For example, the gold is assigned Upādāna kāraṇatva as it acts as the material of the jewellery and thus becomes the jewellery's material cause.

The Universe and Sentients always exist, much like Brahman. However, they undergo transformation. They begin from a subtle state and undergo transformation. The subtle state is called a causal state, while the transformed state is called the effect state. The causal state is when Brahman is internally not distinguishable by name and form. The effect state is when the internal distinction becomes pronounced.
It can be said that Vishishtadvaita follows Brahma-Prakara-Parinama Vada. That is to say, it is the modes (Jivas and Jagath) of Brahman which is under evolution. The cause and effect only refer to the pan-organistic body transformation. Brahman as the Universal Self is unchanging and eternal.
Brahman having the subtle (sūkshma) chit and achit entities as his Saareeram/Prakaaram(body/mode) before manifestation is the same Brahman having the expanded (stūla) chit and achit entities as Saareeram/Prakaaram(body/mode) after manifestation.
The essential feature is that the underlying entity is the same, the changes are in the description of that entity.
For eg. Jack was a baby. Jack was a small kid. Jack was a middle-aged person. Jack was an old man. Jack is dead
The body of a single personality named Jack is described as continuously changing. Jack doesnot become "James" because of the change.

[edit] Ethics

Souls and Matter are only the body of God. Creation is a real act of God. It is the expansion of intelligence. Matter is fundamentally real and undergoes real revelation. The Soul is a higher mode than Matter, because it is conscious. It is also eternally real and eternally distinct. Final release, that comes, by the Lord's Grace, after the death of the body is a Communion with God. This philosophy believes in liberation through one's Karmas (actions) in accordiance with the Vedas, the Varna (caste or class) system and the four Ashramas (stages of life), along with intense devotion to Vishnu. Individual Souls retain their separate identities even after moksha. They live in Fellowship with God either serving Him or meditating on Him. The philosophy of this school is SriVaishnavism, a branch of Vaishnavism.

[edit] Interpretation of Mahāvākyas

All Vedantic schools need to substantiate the meaning espoused by Mahāvākyas which occur throughout Upanishadic literature. The interpretation of these Grand Pronouncements serve as the cornerstone for establishing each school of thought. The most significant among them is:
1. sarvam khalv idam brahma from Chandogya Upanishad 3.14.1Translated literally, this means All this is Brahman. The ontology of Vishishtadvaita system consists of:
1. Ishvara is Para-brahman with infinite superlative qualities, whose substantive nature imparts the existence to the modes
2. Jivas are chit-brahman or sentient beings (which possess consciousness). They are the modes of Brahman which show consciousness.
3. Jagat is achit-brahman or matter/Universe (which are non-conscious). They are the mode of Brahman which are not conscious.
Brahman is the composite whole of the triad consisting of Ishvara along with his modes i.e. Jivas and Jagat. Hence, "all this is Brahman" denotes the triad of entities.
2. ayam ātmā brahma from Mandukya Upanishad 1.2Translated literally, this means the Self is Brahman. From the earlier statement, it follows that on account of everything being Brahman, the self is not different from Brahman.
3. Tat tvam asi from Chandogya Upanishad 6.8.7Translated literally, it means Thou art that
that here refers to Brahman and thou refers to jiva
The vākya establishes the identity of the jiva and Brahman. The issue here is if the identity involves establishing a unique identity or a universal identity. The difference is as follows:
1. Unique Identity:
Atman is Brahman; Nothing else is Brahman; Brahman is reality and therefore everything else is illusion
2. Universal Identity:
Atman is Brahman in the same way as everything else is Brahman.
Rāmānujā chooses to take the position of universal identity. He interprets this passage to mean the subsistence of all attributes in a common underlying substratum. This is referred to as samānādhikaranya. Thus Rāmānujā says the purport of the passage is to show the unity of all beings in a common base. Ishvara (Parabrahman) who is the Cosmic Spirit for the pan-organistic body consisting of the Universe and sentient beings, is also simultaneously the innermost self (Atmān) for each individual sentient being (Jīvā). All the bodies, the Cosmic and the individual, are held in an adjectival relationship (aprthak-siddhi) in the one Isvara.
Tat Tvam Asi declares that oneness of Isvara.
When multiple entities point to a single object, the relationship is established as one of substance and its attributes.
For eg. in a statement:
Jack is a tall and intelligent boy
The descriptors tall-ness,intelligence and boy-ness all refer to a common underlying Jack
Similarly, when the upanishads declare Brahman is the Universe, Purusha, Self, Prana, Vayu, and so on, the entities are attributes or modes of Brahman.
If the statement tat tvam asi is taken to mean as only the self is brahman, then sarvam khalv idam brahma will not make sense.



[edit] Understanding Neti-Neti

This is an upanishadic concept which is employed while attempting to know Brahman. The purport of this exercise is understood in many different ways and also influences the understaning of Brahman. In the overall sense, this phrase is accepted to refer to the indescribable nature of Brahman who is beyond all rationalisations. All descriptions of such an entity will necessarily have to be partial or fall short of the actual.
The typical interpretation of Neti-Neti is not this, not this or neither this, nor that. In VisishtAdvaita, the phrase is taken in the sense of not just this, not just this or not just this, not just that. This means that Brahman cannot be restricted to one specific or a few specific descriptions. Consequently, Brahman is understood to possess infinite qualities and each of these qualities are infinite in extent.

[mahesh]

[edit] Purpose of Human Existence

The purpose or goal of human existence is called as PurushArtha. According to the Vedas, there are four goals namely Artha (wealth), kAma (pleasure), Dharma (righteousness) and Moksha (permanent freedom from worldly bondage). According to this philosophy, the first three goals are not an end by themselves but need to be pursued with the ideal of attaining Moksha.

[edit] Moksha

Moksha is a state where the jiva achieves one-ness with Brahman in terms of all knowership and possessing qualities free from all wordly evils and defects. The jiva however doesnot possess the power to manifest/create and unmanifest/destroy. Neither does it have the power to grant Moksha.
The union of Atman and Brahman is likened to a situation where tiny lamps come under the blaze of the Sun. The lamp and Sun are still identifiable as different sources of light and yet the light arising from them is indistinguishable.
Moksha doesnot involve destruction of the self ("I") consciousness of the jiva.

[edit] Comparison with Western Non-dualism

Baruch Spinoza, the 17th century rationalist philosopher, in his magnum work Ethics establishes the nature of GOD. Spinoza's pan-organistic God (i.e. God revealed as orderly nature) is comparable to Brahman (having the individual selves' and Universe as its body)
Spinoza makes the following propositions on the nature of God, in his work "Ethics". These positions closely reflect the VishistAdvaitic position on the nature of Brahman:
PROPOSITION XI. God, or substance consisting of infinite attributes, of which each expresses eternal and infinite essentiality, necessarily exists.
PROPOSITION XV. Whatsoever is, is in God, and without God nothing can be, or be conceived.
PROPOSITION XVII. God acts solely by the laws of his own nature and is not constrained by anyone.
PROPOSITION XVIII. God is the indwelling and not the transient cause of all things.
PROPOSITION XIX. God and all the attributes of God are eternal.
PROPOSITION XXX. Intellect, in function finite, or in function infinite, must comprehend the attributes of God and the modifications of God, and nothing else.

[edit] VisishtAdvaita and Sri Vaishnavism

The Absolute Supreme Reality referred to as Brahman, is a Transcendent Personality with infinite superlative qualities. He is Narayana, also known as Lord Vishnu. He is also the other two members of the Trimurti, namely, Creator Brahma and Shiva, the Lord of Deluge.
A man who has discrimination for his charioteer and holds the reins of the mind firmly, reaches the end of the road; and that is the supreme position of Vishnu. - 1.3.9 Katha Upanishad
Beyond the senses are the objects; beyond the objects is the mind; beyond the mind, the intellect; beyond the intellect, the Great Atman; beyond the Great Atman, the Unmanifest; beyond the Unmanifest, the Purusha. Beyond the Purusha there is nothing: this is the end, the Supreme Goal.- 1.3.10,11 Katha Upanishad
In terms of theology, Ramanujacharya puts forth the view that both the Supreme Goddess Lakshmi and Supreme God Narayana together constitute Brahman - the Absolute. Sri Lakshmi is the female personification of Brahman and Narayana is the male personification of Brahman, but they are both inseparable, co-eternal, co-absolute and are always substantially one. Thus, in reference to these dual aspects of Brahman, the Supreme is referred to in the Sri Vaishnava Sampradaya as Sriman Narayana.

[edit] Conclusion

Vishishtadvaita conclusions may be briefly summarised as below.
Narayana is the Absolute God. The Soul and the Universe are only parts of this Absolute and hence, Vishishtadvaita is panentheistic. The relationship of God to the Soul and the Universe is like the relationship of the Soul of Man to the body of Man. Individual souls are only parts of Brahman. God, Soul and Universe together form an inseparable unity which is one and has no second. This is the non-duality part. Matter and Souls inhere in that Ultimate Reality as attributes to a substance. This is the qualification part of the non-duality.
Vishishtadvaita philosophy provided the philosophical basis for the establishment of Sri Vaishnavism and gave Vedantic backing to the brimming devotion of the Alwar saints and their composition of wonderful poetry and devotional songs in praise of Lord Vishnu. The succession of great Master-Expositors and spiritual giants of Vishishtadvaita school starts with the twelve Alwars, who left behind an imperishable legacy of Tamil devotional poetry in the form of 4000 songs, now called the Nalayira divya prabandham.

[Seyorni]

Mahesh, you obfuscate the issue with your effusive rhetoric. Can you give a short, concise summary of your position?

I am not saying there is no place for a personal God in religion. I'm saying that such a God is a tool, a means to an end, and will be discarded as the individual aspirant moves beyond it.

[Aupmanyav]

Originally Posted by mahesh

Sarvam kalv idam Brahma Chandogya Upanishad

You quote Chhandogya, but you do not follow it. Mahesh, you, me, Swami Sahajanda, Penguin, Ram, Celina; all are Brahman only, because there is none other.

[mahesh]

THERE IS MUCH MORE. bUT YOUR KNOWLEDGE DOES NOT GO AS FAR AS TO SEE THE ETERNAL TRUTH.

ALL THAT YOU STATED ABOVE.. WE ARE JIVAS. THERE ARE FOUR OTHER ETERNAL ENTITIES TOO. YOU FAIL TO SEE THEM UNDER YOUR MISGUIDED PHILOSOPHY.

BY THE WAY BRAHMA IS ALSO REFERRED TO PARBRAHM PURSHOTTAM NARAYAN. BECAUSE BRAHM IS PARTIALLY PARBRAHM. Brahman is a partial representation of Parbrahman. But when one comes to understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead (vAsudevaH sarvam iti), when one realises that Vasudeva is both Paramatma PArbrahman and the impersonal Brahman, they are then in perfect knowledge.This is absolute knowledge.

[Seyorni]

There are as many Eternal Entities as you choose to create, Mahesh: Four, fourty-four, four hundred four... or a fourth. We create our own Pantheon.

From the Brihadaryanyaka Upanishad:

"Then Vidaghdha, the son of Shakala, asked him: How many Gods are there, Yajnavalkya?"
Yajnavalkya ascertained the number [the group of mantras known as} the Nivid, and said: "As many as are mentioned in the Nivid of the Vishve-Devas --- three hundred three, and three thousand three."

"Very good" said Shakalya, and asked again: "How many Gods are there, Yajnavalkya?"
"Thirty-three."

"Very good" said Shakalya, and asked again: "How many Gods are there, Yajnavalkya?"
"Six."

"Very good" ... "How many Gods are there, Yajnavalkya?"
"Three."

"Very good" ... "How many Gods are there, Yajnavalkya?"
"Two."

"Very good." ... "How many Gods are there, Yajnavalkya?"
"One and a half."

"Very good ... How many Gods are there, Yajnavalkya?"
"One."