Are there any Christian Unitarian Universalists? (Jesus, reject, beliefs, hell)

[uumckk16]

Originally Posted by lilithu

Hey uumckk16, namaste. Can you elaborate on how you're becoming more Christian by the day despite your not believing in the trinity etc? Not arguing with you (at all!), just would love to hear your reflections on this if you feel so inclined.

In the past 15 months that I've been seriously reflecting on my religious beliefs, I've had very mixed feelings about Christianity. I have always been drawn to it because it's in my blood and deeply embedded in my culture, yet at the same time repulsed by many of its notions - Hell, sacrifice, homophobia - and deeply skeptical of many other notions. Recently I've been doing some reading (particularly Marcus Borg) and a lot of reflecting and have seen that there are other ways to look at Christianity besides the way of the fundamentalists. I now see it as a relationship with God rather than a set of requirements (even simply believing) which one needs to fulfill in order to go to Heaven. I am highly metaphorical in my interpretations, though, and so I do not see the virgin birth, most (if not all) of the miracles, the bodily resurrection, etc. as literal occurrences. The trinity I do not interpret literally (I cannot reconcile it either with logic or with my panentheistic view of God) but rather as 3 major roles which God fulfills (for example creator, bringer of hope and love, and an eternal presence).

Does that answer your question? I know it wasn't particularly detailed but I didn't want to bore you Plus, this is quite new to me and I am still working on it (literally, by the day - in fact, I should probably be careful, I think it's distracting my attention while driving ), which is why I have yet to change my religious beliefs to "UU Christian" or something.

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by uumckk16

In the past 15 months that I've been seriously reflecting on my religious beliefs, I've had very mixed feelings about Christianity. I have always been drawn to it because it's in my blood and deeply embedded in my culture, yet at the same time repulsed by many of its notions - Hell, sacrifice, homophobia - and deeply skeptical of many other notions. Recently I've been doing some reading (particularly Marcus Borg) and a lot of reflecting and have seen that there are other ways to look at Christianity besides the way of the fundamentalists. I now see it as a relationship with God rather than a set of requirements (even simply believing) which one needs to fulfill in order to go to Heaven. I am highly metaphorical in my interpretations, though, and so I do not see the virgin birth, most (if not all) of the miracles, the bodily resurrection, etc. as literal occurrences. The trinity I do not interpret literally (I cannot reconcile it either with logic or with my panentheistic view of God) but rather as 3 major roles which God fulfills (for example creator, bringer of hope and love, and an eternal presence).

Does that answer your question? I know it wasn't particularly detailed but I didn't want to bore you Plus, this is quite new to me and I am still working on it (literally, by the day - in fact, I should probably be careful, I think it's distracting my attention while driving ), which is why I have yet to change my religious beliefs to "UU Christian" or something.

Not bored at all. It's cool. Thanks. My view of Christianity is similar to what you describe. I see the trinity in many different ways but mainly I see Jesus as a particularly bright example of the divine spark that glows in each of us. As my minister likes to say (and I have no idea whether other UU ministers say this) "Each child born is one more redeemer."

I think one of the greatest gifts that our UU tradition can give us is the ability to come to terms with our religious roots, whatver they may be. For many of us, that would be Christian. Doesn't mean that we have to identify as Christian, but if we can see positive things in it, and converse positively with Christians, it will go along way in our truly being pluralistic.

[hartlandcat]

The minister of my congregation is often described as 'Christocentric' (although he doesn't like that term), and I believe that he considers himself to be a liberal Christian — he's a member of the Unitarian Christian Association anyway. With both our old minister and our current minister, the services have always seemed rather Christian-orientated (we sing the Lord's Prayer every week, for example), and many members of our congregation will tell you that they are 'Anglicans, really', but that they ended up going to our Unitarian church for one reason or another and decided to stay.

[dbakerman76]

Originally Posted by uumckk16

...I am becoming more and more Christian by the day.

I find this to be the case with myself as well....its a strange thing considering that for most of the last 10 years I tried to distance myself from that.

[des]

Hi,

I think that the points of view you express are common in what would
be termed the "progressive Christian" community (I say community rather losely, as I don't think it is all that organized.) Besides UUs, you would find them variously in members of UCC, and perhaps even United Methodist, Presbyterian USA, Episcopal, etc. The thing is that the various demonations aren't esp. united and you'd find a range of views from perhaps fairly conservative to progressive. I am on the progressive (lunatic :-)) fringe of a UCC church. (I can think of a large handful of people who agree with me theologically speaking, but one of them is not the pastor.) From what I have gathered from them, these are not "new" points of view.

Other writers you might enjoy-- Spong, a book called "Stealing Jesus: How Fundamentalism Betrays Christianity" by Bruce Bauer (a great book for recovering fundies or people with fundie families); and Matthew Fox (like Original Blessings or the Cosmic Christ). Borg is probably the mellowist and least radical in my list. I don't know which book you have read but I liked "The Heart of Christianity" and "Reading the Bible Again for the First Time:
Taking the Bible Seriously but not literally".

There's also a forum (not that I would be trying to get rid of you) called "The Center of Progressive Christianity" (actually an organization as well). The forum is good but I think they let too many fundies come in and argue.

I'm not quite sure what term to use, as I am tired, at the moment (maybe I'll change) with "progressive Christian" since it still implies I might believe some things I definitely wouldn't buy into). I think you caught on quite well to the tone of my comments. For awhile I became "more Christian" and right now I am feeling "less Christian", even maybe less theistic.



--des

Originally Posted by uumckk16

In the past 15 months that I've been seriously reflecting on my religious beliefs, I've had very mixed feelings about Christianity. I have always been drawn to it because it's in my blood and deeply embedded in my culture, yet at the same time repulsed by many of its notions - Hell, sacrifice, homophobia - and deeply skeptical of many other notions. Recently I've been doing some reading (particularly Marcus Borg) and a lot of reflecting and have seen that there are other ways to look at Christianity besides the way of the fundamentalists. I now see it as a relationship with God rather than a set of requirements (even simply believing) which one needs to fulfill in order to go to Heaven. I am highly metaphorical in my interpretations, though, and so I do not see the virgin birth, most (if not all) of the miracles, the bodily resurrection, etc. as literal occurrences. The trinity I do not interpret literally (I cannot reconcile it either with logic or with my panentheistic view of God) but rather as 3 major roles which God fulfills (for example creator, bringer of hope and love, and an eternal presence).

Does that answer your question? I know it wasn't particularly detailed but I didn't want to bore you Plus, this is quite new to me and I am still working on it (literally, by the day - in fact, I should probably be careful, I think it's distracting my attention while driving ), which is why I have yet to change my religious beliefs to "UU Christian" or something.

[uumckk16]

Originally Posted by lilithu

Not bored at all. It's cool. Thanks. My view of Christianity is similar to what you describe. I see the trinity in many different ways but mainly I see Jesus as a particularly bright example of the divine spark that glows in each of us. As my minister likes to say (and I have no idea whether other UU ministers say this) "Each child born is one more redeemer."

Yes, I agree with the divine spark idea, and I like how you put that. Love the quote from your minister!

Originally Posted by lilithu

I think one of the greatest gifts that our UU tradition can give us is the ability to come to terms with our religious roots, whatver they may be. For many of us, that would be Christian. Doesn't mean that we have to identify as Christian, but if we can see positive things in it, and converse positively with Christians, it will go along way in our truly being pluralistic.

Very true!

Originally Posted by dbakerman76

I find this to be the case with myself as well....its a strange thing considering that for most of the last 10 years I tried to distance myself from that.

I think it is our curse as UUs to constantly be reevaluating our beliefs

Originally Posted by des

I think that the points of view you express are common in what would
be termed the "progressive Christian" community (I say community rather losely, as I don't think it is all that organized.) Besides UUs, you would find them variously in members of UCC, and perhaps even United Methodist, Presbyterian USA, Episcopal, etc. The thing is that the various demonations aren't esp. united and you'd find a range of views from perhaps fairly conservative to progressive. I am on the progressive (lunatic :-)) fringe of a UCC church. (I can think of a large handful of people who agree with me theologically speaking, but one of them is not the pastor.) From what I have gathered from them, these are not "new" points of view.

Other writers you might enjoy-- Spong, a book called "Stealing Jesus: How Fundamentalism Betrays Christianity" by Bruce Bauer (a great book for recovering fundies or people with fundie families); and Matthew Fox (like Original Blessings or the Cosmic Christ). Borg is probably the mellowist and least radical in my list. I don't know which book you have read but I liked "The Heart of Christianity" and "Reading the Bible Again for the First Time:
Taking the Bible Seriously but not literally".

There's also a forum (not that I would be trying to get rid of you) called "The Center of Progressive Christianity" (actually an organization as well). The forum is good but I think they let too many fundies come in and argue.

Yes, I'm familiar with the term "progressive Christian." From Borg I've read Reading the Bible Again for the First Time and am currently about halfway through The God We Never Knew; I also purchased a book from him titled Jesus: Uncovering the Life, Teachings, and Relevance of a Religious Revolutionary, as well as Crossan's Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography. This past summer I also read another modern-scholarship book...I can't for the life of me remember the author, but I believe it was called Gospel Truth. Thanks for the other book suggestions! I've heard of Spong and Fox but never Bauer, I'll look into him. Do you have a link for that forum? I'd love to check it out!

Originally Posted by des

I'm not quite sure what term to use, as I am tired, at the moment (maybe I'll change) with "progressive Christian" since it still implies I might believe some things I definitely wouldn't buy into). I think you caught on quite well to the tone of my comments. For awhile I became "more Christian" and right now I am feeling "less Christian", even maybe less theistic.

I'm sure you'll figure out something that works for you Doubt is, IMO, imperative for faith to be true.

[des]

>Yes, I'm familiar with the term "progressive Christian."

I guess that's the current term anyway. For awhile it was liberal. My understanding with the name change was partly that this was more than "political liberalism' within a church setting--as my old UCC seemed to be.
But taking on the whole spiritual atttitudes in a more progressive context.

> Thanks for the other book suggestions! I've heard of Spong and Fox but never Bauer, I'll look into him. Do you have a link for that forum? I'd love to check it out!

Borg is well-liked over on the tcpc forum. (center for Progressive Christianity). Spong somewhat less so. He is fairly angry imo. Though maybe he should be. ;-) Bawer is pretty angry as well, but I think he makes some excellent points, and this is really much more about "church" than the others. Fox is just darned interesting. He is much the mystic. I have heard him speak numerous times, though in the long past.

The link is:
http://www.tcpc.org/template/index.cfm
There is more than the forums. There is a link to what they call the "eight points" (things that many progressive Christians have in common); churches, ideas; articles. There is a great link, which I haven't seen before, to "progressive hymns".

>I'm sure you'll figure out something that works for you Doubt is, IMO, imperative for faith to be true.

I agree wiht that, I'm not sure that some others do. My fundie brother would not.

--des

[uumckk16]

Originally Posted by des

>Yes, I'm familiar with the term "progressive Christian."

I guess that's the current term anyway. For awhile it was liberal. My understanding with the name change was partly that this was more than "political liberalism' within a church setting--as my old UCC seemed to be.
But taking on the whole spiritual atttitudes in a more progressive context.

Yes, I've heard both. I think it makes more sense to say "progressive," though, because as you said "liberal" tends to have political connotations and while liberal religion and liberal politics may go hand in hand they're quite obviously not the same thing.

Originally Posted by des

> Thanks for the other book suggestions! I've heard of Spong and Fox but never Bauer, I'll look into him. Do you have a link for that forum? I'd love to check it out!

Borg is well-liked over on the tcpc forum. (center for Progressive Christianity). Spong somewhat less so. He is fairly angry imo. Though maybe he should be. ;-) Bawer is pretty angry as well, but I think he makes some excellent points, and this is really much more about "church" than the others. Fox is just darned interesting. He is much the mystic. I have heard him speak numerous times, though in the long past.

The link is:
http://www.tcpc.org/template/index.cfm
There is more than the forums. There is a link to what they call the "eight points" (things that many progressive Christians have in common); churches, ideas; articles. There is a great link, which I haven't seen before, to "progressive hymns".

Thanks for the info about the authors. I have a lot of reading ahead of me, I can see I read the eight points and I agree with them; I'll have to look into that forum Thanks for your help!

Originally Posted by des

>I'm sure you'll figure out something that works for you. Doubt is, IMO, imperative for faith to be true.

I agree wiht that, I'm not sure that some others do. My fundie brother would not.

--des

Well, there are many things I believe that fundies would not And I assume the same is true for you.

[des]

>Yes, I've heard both. I think it makes more sense to say "progressive," though, because as you said "liberal" tends to have political connotations and while liberal religion and liberal politics may go hand in hand they're quite obviously not the same thing.

There are, for instance, liberals politically but not religiously. I think Jim Wallis is one of them. I have seen him mentioned as a Christian liberal, but I strongly disagree. He is more of an evangelical. I wouldn't say he was a fundamentalist. (He wrote: God's Politics, How the Right is Wrong and the Left doesn't get it". His most interesting comment, imo, was taking a scissors and cutting out any mention of poverty and justice. He says, "The Bible was full of holes, and this is the Bible we have been preaching from").
Then there are Christian progressives against abortion, for instance.

>Thanks for the info about the authors. I have a lot of reading ahead of me, I can see I read the eight points and I agree with them; I'll have to look into that forum Thanks for your help!

i do too. Another interesting link is: http://www.crosswalkamerica.org/
(not to be confused with crosswalkamerica.COM). This group walked from Phoenix to Washington DC to proclaim a progressive message. They have an interesting blog, esp.

Also be aware that tcpc doesn't have quite the ability to monitor (one very part time and overwhelmed monitor) discussions, so I feel they do get out of hand sometimes.

>Well, there are many things I believe that fundies would not And I assume the same is true for you.

Ain't that the truth.

--des