Believing what we 'want' (Jesus, ritual, tradition, beliefs, soul)

[michel]

I am curious now; would a UU "group" refuse access to any follower of any particular religions ? (I have always understood that it embraced - though has no focus on - any particular belief system?)

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by michel

I am curious now; would a UU "group" refuse access to any follower of any particular religions ? (I have always understood that it embraced - though has no focus on - any particular belief system?)

Namaste, Michel.

No UU group that I know would refuse community with someone just because they are a follower of a particular religion. And if they did, I would have an issue with them. BUT, a UU group might refuse community with someone if they held beliefs that violate our fundamental values - such as our belief in the inherent worth of each person. For example, there are Christians who believe that God's love extends to all. And there are Christians who believe that all non-Christians are going to hell. We would not have a problem with someone just because they're Christian (there are many Christians in my UU congregation) but we would probably have a problem with someone who keeps telling most of our members that they're going to hell.

Does that make sense?

Almost every religion is complex enough such that there are followers who interpret it through the eyes of love and inclusion and there are followers who interpret it through the eyes of division and exclusion. We only have a problem with the latter.

[des]

Hi,

Whew! I didn't think I was being offensive, but one does have to be careful as to how those ideas might relate to "insiders". It is one thing to attack the more literalist views
of *Christianity". After all, I do get beat up with them by my brother! However, I don't have any personal involvement with Islam.

I think I had some of this in mind Applewuud, I just couldn't think of any specific examples. But yes, I remember this one. I also remember how Djamali has been attacked many times (and you, Jamaesi, a few) for taking on supposed non-Islam ideas. This is EXACTLY the way literalist Christians attack progressive Christians. They beat them over the head with the idea that they aren't Christian so often that people like me don't even like the word "Christian" anymore.

I'm not sure that this is really even about Islam or Christianity, but about the way various religions have dealt with modernity. In fact, I have heard that the fleeing to fundamentalism is the fleeing away from modernity. I saw something, I think it might have been this Crossroads series on how moderate Islam in Indonesia with its very tolerant ideas (something I think, from my understanding of Mohammed, would have pleased the prophet) giving way to fear, the cloistering of women, and so on, and attacks on Hindus in Bali. In this country, fundamentalist Christians, have made women feel that they belong in the home and that men are in charge and are attacking gays and lesbians, and I think encouraging violence. Many of the customs of in Islam that are so clung are old tribal customs back from over a 1000 years ago.
So I'm not so sure you'll find out how others view Islam from my comments.

I have read "No god but God". I think Reza Aslan is fascinating. The book is extremely well written, and some old beliefs about Islam that I keep hearing bandied about are just plan not true. I also saw him debate Sam Harris, who usually comes across very glib and articulate. But he wasn't much of a match for Aslan's superior breadth of knowledge.

I very much miss Djamili too, not quite sure how to spell her name. :-)
I think she was put down a lot, though I loved reading her posts.

--des

Originally Posted by jamaesi

des-
Don't worry, I wasn't offended in the least, just curious. I like to hear what "outsiders" think about Islam- it helps me think about it, myself.

Applewuud-
To put the "Muslim woman cannot marry a nonMuslim man" idea in perspective... I can completely understand how, when Islam was founded, there would be pressure for a Muslim woman to marry a Muslim man. It was through Islam that a woman was guaranteed human rights and equal treatment. NonMuslim women would come to Muslim courts to be treated fairly in areas such as divorce. Islam was very revolutionary in the rights it gave to females. Back then I would be loathe to marry a nonMuslim man.

Now... this just isn't the case anymore in most countries (and it's also the opposite in too many "Islamic" countries). I wouldn't have to be married to Muslim man to be assured that I would have equal rights even though I was a wife. Of course, this opens up the whole can of worms interfaith couples have to deal with but that's another issue.

It's just... you have a brain and you use it and you get called a "kaffir" for not just burying your head in the sand and going along with whatever is going on, good or bad. Just frustrating.


I don't know if you'd be interested, but No God But God by Reza Aslan is an excellent book about understanding the past and future of Islam.



I can't really say where Djamila has gone off to, but I sure do miss her around here.

[des]

I think usually people going into a UU church have a vague idea that this is not a traditional church and really wouldn't go into one if they felt uncomfortable with that idea. We have had people come into our UCC congregation though, and I think they did not know what they were getting into and are shocked. It has happened a few times. I think the biggest thing is the welcoming of gays and lesbians. I've never actually seen anyone walk out though.

I would guess that people have walked out of UU churches but probably right at the beginning. :-)

--des

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by hartlandcat

So I suppose the question arising from this is — do Unitarians have to base their beliefs upon reason and/or experience, or can we just decide that we like something and believe in it anyway?

I don't know if I would say that Unitarian (U)s HAVE TO base their beliefs upon reason and/or experience. Altho I have to say that I have yet to meet a U/U who doesn't value these highly. I'm much more comfortable articulating what we CANNOT do rather than what we HAVE TO do. So, as you say, a U/U cannot believe that genocide is a good thing. A U/U cannot believe/support anything that demeans the worth of others.

Beyond that, if a U/U wants to believe in a pink invisible unicorn that leaves nuts for chipmunks and squirrels in the winter, such a belief would defy both reason and personal experience imo (at least I've never seen such a thing) BUT I wouldn't say he or she would be violating the spirit of what it means to be U/U. For me, the primary concern is ethical. As long as the beliefs do not lead to or condone the harm of others, I'll try to leave them be.

I do not know any UUs who believe in said pink invisible unicorns, but I have met a few UUs who believe in ETs and ghosts and faeries and other things in which I do not believe. I don't particularly like it - imo it makes us look a little nutty - but I acknowledge that for non-theist UUs my belief in God makes us look a little nutty, so hey. We're a colorful bunch of nuts.