I think I'm "really" a Unitarian?? (Jesus, ritual)

[des]

Hi,

Sorry for what might be a long post. I'll try to subdivide it enough so someone might bother to read it. :-) For all you brave souls here it is:

I've been posting around the block for about a month or so-- everything from satanism (no I don't believe in it, but it's interesting) to Christianity to atheism to...

I am going to a UCC church (you know what they say about UCC they are really Unitarians Considering Christ? :-)). But I think I am more of a UU. I've have been to the UU church or fellowship. It is very large and this is the only one to my knowledge, and I don't care for it much more or less as it is so big.

I am a part of the UCC church like the community very much and find I like some of what goes on. However, I am finding myself getting further away from the dogma parts of that (what of there there is). For instance. I don't believe in intercessory prayer which they do every week.
Or the words of most of the hymns, though i very much like music of traditional hymns. I actually like a lot of the ritual, though I don't "believe in it" as such. For instance, I like the ritual involved in communion though I don't think of it maybe the same way as some others. (THough it is hard to know. I know that a lot of people in our congregation do not believe in things like a literal resurrection, a literal trinity, etc, etc.) The sermons are mostly not a problem as they are mostly about the words or actions of Jesus, and we don't hear about hell, substitutional atonement, and a long line of other things I dont' believe in. Even if I were tell the pastor exactly what I believed in no way would I be booted out or told not to do certain things or anything like that. They say "no matter where you are on your faith journey, you're welcome here". But I myself am feelign less happy with it.


But I'm pretty sure I don't believe in anything resembling a Christian God. (Haven't polled everyone yet. ;-)). Any god(s) would necessarily, imo, have to be more like essence or even the universe itself. I am interested in the contemplative traditions, but there isn't much of that in UCC (or from what I saw UU). Not that I have done much about it.

As I said I went to the UU church (probably 4xs the size of the very small UCC church) this is the SW, so progressive Christianity is't big here like in the East. Some things I did like: the hymns (mostly one verse!! And familar music), the music (they had a brass band the last time I went), dedications instead of prayers, etc. etc. But I found it a little more as a lecture center than a church and as I said big.

I will no doubt go on there during Easter as I dislike esp the run up to Easter even in UCC. It's everything I don't like about Christianity doubled.

Any ideas or words of wisdom??

--des

[lilithu]

Hi des, namaste.

I had asked you in another thread what Unitarian Considering Christ meant. I found it intriguing. It didn't occur to me that you were UCC. Cute!

I don't have any words of wisdom other than to keep going to the UU congregation near you and see how you feel. You said that you like ritual. (I do too!) You may find that your UU congregation is lacking in ritual. At least, several of my former Christian friends who are UU now tell me that is the case with them. Then again, it may be fine with you.

Yes, there are differences in theology between UCC and UU but we are similar enough that I am confident that you could be happy in either one provided that you enjoy the congregation that you are in.

So that would be my advise, I guess. Don't worry about which label you choose. Pick the congregation that suits you best.

And whichever one you choose, hang with us in the UU forum!

[des]

>Hi des, namaste.

Namaste!

>I had asked you in another thread what Unitarian Considering Christ meant. I found it intriguing. It didn't occur to me that you were UCC. Cute!

I probably couldn't find the thread again. I am finding religiousforums addictive, but rather confusing. I try to find threads I read and then I can't find them again. Of course, I am writing/reading all over the board. :-)

But Unitarian Considering Christ. It is supposedly an insult derisive of UCC.
(That we can believe anythign and so on. Of course, there are some things that are really believed in (like inclusivity and social justice, say).
Those are things Jesus disliked. (tongue firmly in cheek).)
Religiousforums didn't have a big enough line to place all that.

I, OTOH, like Unitarians considering Christ and consider it about right. I think we should embrace it. :-) I do think many members (at least of our congregation) are unitarian, in the sense of not believing in a trinity, or believing trinity to be an analogy of some kind. I also don't think most people feel Jesus is God in our UCC. (UCCs vary and there are very conservative churches.)

>I don't have any words of wisdom other than to keep going to the UU congregation near you and see how you feel. You said that you like ritual. (I do too!) You may find that your UU congregation is lacking in ritual. At least, several of my former Christian friends who are UU now tell me that is the case with them. Then again, it may be fine with you.

Yes, that's the case. As I said, I like communion, though I don't ascribe much beyond sort of a general gathering of folks in community. I find the UU lacks ritual. I wouldn't say UCC is heavy in ritual (like Catholic or Anglican say) but it has a high church element. Also our particular church is dark, which I like.(Dark wood and stained glass and candles, that sort of thing.)

>Yes, there are differences in theology between UCC and UU but we are similar enough that I am confident that you could be happy in either one provided that you enjoy the congregation that you are in.

Oh yes, there is some degree of Christian dogma which I have trouble with.
It isn't like you have to sign on any line. As I think freedom of conscience
is more important. We do talk, in coffee hour, and I find a lot of people on the same wavelength.

I think in some ways I am more agnostic, than average (for instance, in disliking/not believing in intercessory prayer). Or at least whatever belief I isn't as formed/ it is more like "a sense of the spiritual/ or transcendence" or something like that.

So I have a lot of problems around Easter, as that's the time where it is most into the dogmatic aspects.

I might have a problem with wherever I went. You know nothing might fit me exactly. OTOH, I love the community aspect. You don't get that sitting at home. It's also a way for me to give back in some ways-- you know we do various things like the alternative gift market and that sort of thing.

UCC has also made me very happy lately in some courageous stances against the reactionary elements (i.e. gay marriage), and the edgy ads that gave fundies the creeps. :-)

>So that would be my advise, I guess. Don't worry about which label you choose. Pick the congregation that suits you best.

Of course, not sure that I wanted advise, just what various people might think and what they have experienced.

>And whichever one you choose, hang with us in the UU forum!

For sure.

--des

[Kay]

I probably couldn't find the thread again. I am finding religiousforums addictive, but rather confusing. I try to find threads I read and then I can't find them again. Of course, I am writing/reading all over the board. :-)

Make sure that your default choice in your user panel is to subscribe to the threads that you reply to (but not receive email). That way all you have to do it click the "User CP" link above and it will show you all the threads you're subscribed to that have recent replies.

If I don't feel I have anything to add to the thread, but want to subscribe, I'll often just "eat popcorn." (It doesn't even move. ) Of course, you can always just use the "thread tools" to subscribe, but it's not as fun.

And oh, the hubby and I are going to start attending our local UU too. So I guess that makes me a pagan UU.

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by Kay

And oh, the hubby and I are going to start attending our local UU too. So I guess that makes me a pagan UU.

If you guys find that you like the congregation and get involved, make sure to ask if they have a CUUPS chapter.

(Covenant of Unitarian Universalist Pagans)

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by des

I probably couldn't find the thread again. I am finding religiousforums addictive, but rather confusing. I try to find threads I read and then I can't find them again. Of course, I am writing/reading all over the board. :-)

As Kay said, you can set your preferences so that you automatically get "subscribed" to any thread that you post in. And then you can find them through your UserCP.

Originally Posted by des

But Unitarian Considering Christ. It is supposedly an insult derisive of UCC.
(That we can believe anythign and so on. Of course, there are some things that are really believed in (like inclusivity and social justice, say).
Those are things Jesus disliked. (tongue firmly in cheek).)
Religiousforums didn't have a big enough line to place all that.

I, OTOH, like Unitarians considering Christ and consider it about right. I think we should embrace it. :-) I do think many members (at least of our congregation) are unitarian, in the sense of not believing in a trinity, or believing trinity to be an analogy of some kind. I also don't think most people feel Jesus is God in our UCC. (UCCs vary and there are very conservative churches.)

lol, I am a big fan of embracing things that are meant to be insulting. Did you know that the name "Unitarian" itself was meant to be an insult? Back in the day, when the UUs and the UCC were still one faith but already fighting, the more conservative Congregationalists dismissively called the more liberal ones "unitarians." And the liberal ones decided to embrace the name. (conservative and liberal being relative terms, of course.)

Originally Posted by des

Yes, that's the case. As I said, I like communion, though I don't ascribe much beyond sort of a general gathering of folks in community. I find the UU lacks ritual. I wouldn't say UCC is heavy in ritual (like Catholic or Anglican say) but it has a high church element. Also our particular church is dark, which I like.(Dark wood and stained glass and candles, that sort of thing.)

It also depends on where you live. If you attended my UU church in DC it would feel pretty protestant churchy (It's modeled after St. Martin in the Fields in England.) Also, All Souls in NYC. And Arlington Street Church in Boston (which has stained glass windows by Louis Comfort Tiffany ). Pretty much all the old Unitarian and Universalist churches throughout the East coast are churchy both in architecture and worship. The newer UU churches otoh, seem to go for a more organic, "natural" type architecture and less hierarchical, less ritualized services.

Originally Posted by des

So I have a lot of problems around Easter, as that's the time where it is most into the dogmatic aspects.

Well, is it dogma or is it tradition? My church has a Christmas pageant every Christmas, and we do holy week during Easter including a Good Friday service with communion. And some people get upset by that, and others say it isn't enough. But I think... there's room to talk about the birth of Jesus, even though very few of us if any believe that he was born on Dec 25th and was surrounded by angels and wise men. We do it anyway, because we like the tradition, and the excuse for little kids to dress up in sheep costumes ... and then we talk about how every child is a potential redeemer, not just the one who's birth we're celebrating. So the form is still there but the theology is different. The same thing with our Good Friday communion. It's not about the blood and flesh of Christ. It's the fruits of the earth and the bread of life, something like that. (That's what it was anyway before the Christians co-opted these pagan symbols.)

Originally Posted by des

I might have a problem with wherever I went. You know nothing might fit me exactly. OTOH, I love the community aspect. You don't get that sitting at home. It's also a way for me to give back in some ways-- you know we do various things like the alternative gift market and that sort of thing.

lol! Ok, now you really sound like a UU.

Originally Posted by des

UCC has also made me very happy lately in some courageous stances against the reactionary elements (i.e. gay marriage), and the edgy ads that gave fundies the creeps. :-)

Yes, I love it!

Originally Posted by des

Of course, not sure that I wanted advise, just what various people might think and what they have experienced.

Ok, that's how I interpreted your asking for "words of wisdom." Sorry, didn't mean to presume.

[des]

>As Kay said, you can set your preferences so that you automatically get "subscribed" to any thread that you post in. And then you can find them through your UserCP.

Thanks, that might help. Of course, I am voyeur, reading all sorts of stuff ranging from (as I said) satanism to Islam and everythign in between. Perhaps I am a junkie. :-)

>lol, I am a big fan of embracing things that are meant to be insulting. Did you know that the name "Unitarian" itself was meant to be an insult? Back in the day, when the UUs and the UCC were still one faith but already fighting, the more conservative Congregationalists dismissively called the more liberal ones "unitarians." And the liberal ones decided to embrace the name. (conservative and liberal being relative terms, of course.)

yes. But of course, Congregational was once more conservative. I suppose Unitarian was too. I think at one time they were Christian.

I didn't even know they were ever combined-- oh maybe don't know the history of Congregationalists. That's where we started anyway. There were two other smaller churches involved. There are some Congregationalist churches back east that won't be affiliated wtih UCC, probably because it's an affliation. :-) But yes, makes sense. UU and UCC share a dislike for anything that comes top down, regardless of what it is.

I think Unitarian is a fine insult. :-)

>I Pretty much all the old Unitarian and Universalist churches throughout the East coast are churchy both in architecture and worship. The newer UU churches otoh, seem to go for a more organic, "natural" type architecture and less hierarchical, less ritualized services.

Oh no, where I live (Southwest) the UU church looks like a bank or arena or something. Of course, there is a city ordinance against architecture of any kind :-) (or that would explain a lot). I have heard now that there are a couple other smaller churches and fellowships. Of course, I am anti-small church as you end up doing everything-- but I might check them out. :-)

>Well, is it dogma or is it tradition? My church has a Christmas pageant

A little of both. The Easter season is very long. Of course, I don't go to all
the Maudry Thursday stuff and Ash wednesday. (BTW, before I knew what was up I went to the Maudry thursday session at my old church in Chicago. So here is this very heavy somber service and below us they have this gay square dancing club playing this very loud square dancing music. :-))

>thers say it isn't enough. But I think... there's room to talk about the birth of Jesus, even though very few of us if any believe that he was born on Dec 25th and was surrounded by angels and wise men. We do it anyway, because we like the tradition, and the excuse for little kids to dress up in sheep costumes ... and then we talk about how every child is a potential redeemer, not just the one who's birth we're

Oh I love all the Christmas stuff and advent and the like. I love all the kids pagents and that sort of thing, candlelight service. All good, imo.
I think the Christmas myth is quite a charming one. Of course, I don't really believe it happened that way, but I find it all charming and sweet. I love Christmas music.

The Easter stuff is different because it deals with not just death and suffering but also this event that I totally don't believe in a real way. Of course I know a lot of people at the UCC that don't believe in the literal
resurrection. I just contradicted myself, as I don't believe in the literal Christmas event either. But then again, I like the myth more.

>lesh of Christ. It's the fruits of the earth and the bread of life, something like that. (That's what it was anyway before the Christians co-opted these pagan symbols.)

Oh yes, in fact the pastor calls it the "fruit of the vine", etc. So I am ok with that. Today I went to a little communion service we had and he said
"this is the body of christ". I just about turned around and walked out.

Instead afterwards I found the most intellectually oriented people I could.
They were all amazed that he was using wine, since it is so "Catholic".
Also they think we already do communion too much (once a month).
"This is unCongregationalist" (whatever that means?). Also we just don't do the "body of Christ" thing at all, so we got in this discussion re: transmorgfication (?) or the other one.

One said, "well there he is (the pastor), why don't you ask him what he meant". He said basically "whatever you want" but he is from a Lutheran tradition. I told him that I couldn't get into that, so I wouldn't be coming back. He was not offended. But some of the congregation used to be Episcopal or MCC and they want communion more. And they want the wine, and so forth. So one group doesn't want it so much and another wants it more. I said that day that I thought our church must be like herding cats.
;-)

>lol! Ok, now you really sound like a UU.

Oh all the giving back and community stuff. Oh yes. But it is also very UCC. You know we are, as my fundie brother would say (it would be an insult), it is so "social gospel". It's the only kind, imo.

>Yes, I love it!

That would be the edgy ads. And stances on social issues.

>Ok, that's how I interpreted your asking for "words of wisdom." Sorry, didn't mean to presume.

I dont' mind advice. It's just that I probably wouldn't take it anyway. :-)


--des