Divine Intervention (reject, Creator, beliefs, minority, creation)

[uumckk16]

This is just a subject that's been bothering me lately and I would love to hear my fellow UU's takes on it.

(By the way, stop me if I'm breaking forum rules - I'm not sure exactly what we're allowed to discuss here. I know this is something that could go in General Religious Debates, I just wanted just your opinions, for the moment at least. Am I okay? )

What is your opinion on divine intervention? If you believe in God, do you believe God is omnipotent or omniscient? How do you explain Scripture, prophets, visions, miracles, etc.? What better explanations can you see for them, or do you accept them as is? Have you personally ever experienced any of these things, and if so, how did you explain them?

This thread might just die after a couple posts, but I'd really like to get a discussion going on it if possible. It's been giving me a headache for more than a month now and I'm still confused

Thanks

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by uumckk16

This is just a subject that's been bothering me lately and I would love to hear my fellow UU's takes on it.

(By the way, stop me if I'm breaking forum rules - I'm not sure exactly what we're allowed to discuss here. I know this is something that could go in General Religious Debates, I just wanted just your opinions, for the moment at least. Am I okay? )

What is your opinion on divine intervention? If you believe in God, do you believe God is omnipotent or omniscient? How do you explain Scripture, prophets, visions, miracles, etc.? What better explanations can you see for them, or do you accept them as is? Have you personally ever experienced any of these things, and if so, how did you explain them?

This thread might just die after a couple posts, but I'd really like to get a discussion going on it if possible. It's been giving me a headache for more than a month now and I'm still confused

Thanks

Can't think of why you wouldn't be ok.

I believe that God is omnipotent, but that's because I believe that anything that can be done is done thru God, God being the ground (ie- basis) of all being. I do not believe that God is omniscient. In my theology, that would kinda ruin the point of everything.

(You might be interested in Charles Hartshorne's book of essays titled "Omnipotence and other theological mistakes." Hartshorne was a process theologian and a UU.)

How do I explain Scripture, prophets, visions, miracles, etc.? People experienced God and then tried to make sense of it, talked about it, and wrote it down. Experience of the Divine is rather confusing and we do our best to interpret what we experienced, but interpretations will be influenced by our social context, and then description will distort the original experience even more. By the last couple of sentences, I am NOT saying that these things are not real. In fact, I accept them as real, just distorted. To what degree is it distorted and to what degree is it literally true? I don't know, and for the most part I don't care. The only time objective veracity matters to me in these situations is when an ethical issue is at stake.

Don't know whether this helped at all or muddied the waters even more. <shrug>


Addendum:
I guess I should clarify/explicitly state that I don't believe in Divine Intervention per se. That implies that there is a duality between creator and creation and that most of the time creation is left on its own and once in a while the creator intervenes. For me, creation is God manifest, not separate. And we are God manifest, not separate.

(I kinda feel silly always pointing that its true for humans too, since as we are part of creation what is true for creation is true for us. But I find that we tend to forget that we are part of creation.)

The thing is that we live under the illusion that we are separate. What the Hindus and Buddhists call Maya. And what Doppleganger calls self-awareness. Every now and then we get a glimpse beyond that illusion, and that was what I was refering to - the experience of the Divine.

[dbakerman76]

I believe that divine intervention is possible. My own take is that God works through us. As for beliefs about God's character, I simply believe that the divine is love.

As for scripture, I believe it was man written with portions divinely inspired. Unfortunately, it is full of man's own mistakes and prejudices.

As for the miraculous, I experience with my every breath. Every moment that I am is a gift from God. Just as it is for anyone else who opens themselves up to the spirit of divine love.

My beliefs are simply my own experience and where it has led me. I'm certain I'm a minority voice within UU. But then again aren't we all since we speak for ourselves and no one else.

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by dbakerman76

I'm certain I'm a minority voice within UU. But then again aren't we all since we speak for ourselves and no one else.

We all speak for ourselves, but I think there is more consensus that we admit. (Note the results of the poll on belief/knowledge/experience.) And I pretty much agree with what you wrote. We may be a minority, but I think we're bigger than you think, and I also think we're growing.

[uumckk16]

Thanks for the responses! Sorry it's taken me a while to respond, I've had a crazy week and I wanted to ponder this a bit.

Originally Posted by shaktinah

I believe that God is omnipotent, but that's because I believe that anything that can be done is done thru God, God being the ground (ie- basis) of all being. I do not believe that God is omniscient. In my theology, that would kinda ruin the point of everything.

Hmm, interesting. Can you clarify the statement "anything that can be done is done through God"? Don't the words "can be done" mean that God is not omnipotent, but is only as powerful as we are? Maybe I'm reading you wrong. And do you mean only positive actions, or both positive and negative?

Out of curiousity - you don't have to explain if it would take too long - how would God's omniscience ruin the point of everything?

Originally Posted by shaktinah

(You might be interested in Charles Hartshorne's book of essays titled "Omnipotence and other theological mistakes." Hartshorne was a process theologian and a UU.)

Thanks for the tip! I'll look into it =D

Originally Posted by shaktinah

How do I explain Scripture, prophets, visions, miracles, etc.? People experienced God and then tried to make sense of it, talked about it, and wrote it down. Experience of the Divine is rather confusing and we do our best to interpret what we experienced, but interpretations will be influenced by our social context, and then description will distort the original experience even more. By the last couple of sentences, I am NOT saying that these things are not real. In fact, I accept them as real, just distorted. To what degree is it distorted and to what degree is it literally true? I don't know, and for the most part I don't care. The only time objective veracity matters to me in these situations is when an ethical issue is at stake.

I agree.

I guess it just gets confusing for me when people say they have literally heard the voice of God or seen visions; who am I to tell them they didn't actually experience it? I'm sure some are lying but I have more faith in humanity than to call them all liars. So perhaps it could be explained as their body's response to this experience with the Divine? Or maybe just a case of people believing what they want to believe?

That was part of the confusion that prompted me to start this thread. *shrug*

Originally Posted by shaktinah

Don't know whether this helped at all or muddied the waters even more. <shrug>

No, it was lots of food for thought, thank you!

Originally Posted by shaktinah

Addendum:
I guess I should clarify/explicitly state that I don't believe in Divine Intervention per se. That implies that there is a duality between creator and creation and that most of the time creation is left on its own and once in a while the creator intervenes. For me, creation is God manifest, not separate. And we are God manifest, not separate.

(I kinda feel silly always pointing that its true for humans too, since as we are part of creation what is true for creation is true for us. But I find that we tend to forget that we are part of creation.)

The thing is that we live under the illusion that we are separate. What the Hindus and Buddhists call Maya. And what Doppleganger calls self-awareness. Every now and then we get a glimpse beyond that illusion, and that was what I was refering to - the experience of the Divine.

This is really very interesting. I am quite sure I believe this as well, though my thoughts are so scattered nowadays who knows what I really believe. But you stated it very eloquently. Thanks again!

Originally Posted by dbakerman76

I believe that divine intervention is possible. My own take is that God works through us. As for beliefs about God's character, I simply believe that the divine is love.

I agree that the Divine is love, in a sense, but I'm not sure I agree that God works through us. Wouldn't that sort of make us puppets? Or am I reading you too literally?

Originally Posted by dbakerman76

As for scripture, I believe it was man written with portions divinely inspired. Unfortunately, it is full of man's own mistakes and prejudices.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by dbakerman76

As for the miraculous, I experience with my every breath. Every moment that I am is a gift from God. Just as it is for anyone else who opens themselves up to the spirit of divine love.

This was beautiful, thank you. What a refreshing attitude =D and something I can agree with and need to remember sometimes.

Originally Posted by dbakerman76

My beliefs are simply my own experience and where it has led me. I'm certain I'm a minority voice within UU. But then again aren't we all since we speak for ourselves and no one else.

That's great that you've found what you believe =D I agree with shaktinah though - I think there is a good deal of consensus among us UUs. As a whole religion I think we share many of the same values; and among us theists, while the details may differ, I think we have pretty similar views of the Divine. Maybe a better way to put it is I think there are some things that can safely be said to be universally rejected among UUs =P

Thanks again, guys. I really appreciate it =D

[lilithu]

Hey uumck16. It's late here and I need to get to sleep soon if I am going to make it to church in the morning. So these answers will be brief.

Originally Posted by uumckk16

Hmm, interesting. Can you clarify the statement "anything that can be done is done through God"? Don't the words "can be done" mean that God is not omnipotent, but is only as powerful as we are? Maybe I'm reading you wrong. And do you mean only positive actions, or both positive and negative?

We have no power except thru God. We have no existence except thru God. I don't believe that God created a world separate from Godself. I believe that God sustains our existence at every moment, even as we speak. There's a poem by Meister Eckhart that I posted earlier today that speaks directly to this:

The color of a wall
depends on the wall.

In the same manner
the isness of creatures
depends on the love of God.

Take the color from the wall and the color would cease to be.
So too,
all creatures would cease to exist
if they were separated from
the love that God is.

- Meister Eckhart

Originally Posted by uumckk16

Out of curiousity - you don't have to explain if it would take too long - how would God's omniscience ruin the point of everything?

I believe that the "purpose" of creation, if there is a purpose, is simply the unfolding of creation from potentiality into actuality. Things that potentially can be, come to be, thru the interaction of natural law and free will. There is no divine plan other than this. Again, it's not like God created a universe separate from God with a specific goal in mind. That's what I mean by God not being omniscient. God doesn't know what is going to happen because God is changing right along with us.

That's probably not very clear. But it's late and I'm tired, especially of typing. Will follow up later if you have questions.

In the mean time, these are the schools of thought that shape my theology: existentialism, mysticism, process theism and/or panentheism.

Hope yall have a good Sunday morning!

[uumckk16]

Originally Posted by shaktinah

Hey uumck16. It's late here and I need to get to sleep soon if I am going to make it to church in the morning. So these answers will be brief.
We have no power except thru God. We have no existence except thru God. I don't believe that God created a world separate from Godself. I believe that God sustains our existence at every moment, even as we speak. There's a poem by Meister Eckhart that I posted earlier today that speaks directly to this:

The color of a wall
depends on the wall.

In the same manner
the isness of creatures
depends on the love of God.

Take the color from the wall and the color would cease to be.
So too,
all creatures would cease to exist
if they were separated from
the love that God is.

- Meister Eckhart

Thanks for clarifying I like that concept; and that's a beautiful poem. I don't entirely understand it but I will ponder it some more. Thank you again for responding

I believe that the "purpose" of creation, if there is a purpose, is simply the unfolding of creation from potentiality into actuality. Things that potentially can be, come to be, thru the interaction of natural law and free will. There is no divine plan other than this. Again, it's not like God created a universe separate from God with a specific goal in mind. That's what I mean by God not being omniscient. God doesn't know what is going to happen because God is changing right along with us.

That thought has occurred to me as well, and I've been playing with it. Although, maybe I'm misunderstanding the concept of omniscience. Could a being be omnicient by knowing everything that's unfolding in the universe now? Would that have to include the future? I suppose so, since time is just another dimension, right? I guess I've always been able to believe in an omniscient God because I've always believed God is separate from the physical - that God is purely spiritual - and so would not be limited by time. Yet your concept of God not being separate is intriguing.

I really can't thank you enough for helping me out here by giving another perspective Sometimes talking to someone else about something can make it a whole lot clearer. Things come up that you never thought of before.

Hope yall have a good Sunday morning!

Hope you had a great Sunday!

[dbakerman76]

Originally Posted by uumckk16

I agree that the Divine is love, in a sense, but I'm not sure I agree that God works through us. Wouldn't that sort of make us puppets? Or am I reading you too literally?

You are definitely reading me to literally. I mean simply that when we live lives of love we are God's hands, eyes, ears, mouths. To see ourselves as puppets is to diminish our own role in the world. We are free to ignore the quiet voice of God within us all (as many often do).