Universalism (punishment, reject, Creator, Deist, salvation)

[Victor]

I’ve always been curious as to the nature of universalism. To my understanding most UU’s hold that everyone will be saved if there is indeed a God. Can someone expound on this please?

[BrandonE]

As for the history of Universalism as a Christian doctrine, a web search for "universalism history" can lead to some sites that go into great detail about the history of the belief. EDIT: I tried to put up a link to an interesting one I found, but can't do that until I've made at least 15 posts apparently.

However, universalism in America pretty quickly moved from being a specifically Christian (protestant) doctrine, to being a wider belief in the ultimate mercy of the divine. Specific belief varies widely among UU's now, and the number of members that hold a specifically historical protestant view of the doctrine is probably very very small.

Personally, though I no longer believe in a separate deity, my break with the "salvation vs. damnation"/"sheep and goats" doctrine of my upbringing came mostly by an intuition that all the wise and good people that I saw in the world outside of Christendom could not be damned by a loving deity.

[Victor]

Originally Posted by BrandonE

As for the history of Universalism as a Christian doctrine, a web search for "universalism history" can lead to some sites that go into great detail about the history of the belief. EDIT: I tried to put up a link to an interesting one I found, but can't do that until I've made at least 15 posts apparently.

However, universalism in America pretty quickly moved from being a specifically Christian (protestant) doctrine, to being a wider belief in the ultimate mercy of the divine. Specific belief varies widely among UU's now, and the number of members that hold a specifically historical protestant view of the doctrine is probably very very small.

Personally, though I no longer believe in a separate deity, my break with the "salvation vs. damnation"/"sheep and goats" doctrine of my upbringing came mostly by an intuition that all the wise and good people that I saw in the world outside of Christendom could not be damned by a loving deity.

Do you personally hold to a Universalist salvation ideology?

[BrandonE]

Originally Posted by Victor

Do you personally hold to a Universalist salvation ideology?

Hmm. Personally, I'm not even sure how I'd define "salvation". My personal theology has changed a lot over my lifetime. I currently conceive of "god" as the totality of the universe, and don't really believe in any sort of afterlife that involves singular, recognizable ego identities. So, I guess the answer to the question is really yes and no. Is that helpful?

[Victor]

Originally Posted by BrandonE

Hmm. Personally, I'm not even sure how I'd define "salvation". My personal theology has changed a lot over my lifetime. I currently conceive of "god" as the totality of the universe, and don't really believe in any sort of afterlife that involves singular, recognizable ego identities. So, I guess the answer to the question is really yes and no. Is that helpful?

You seem to fit the Deist philosphy, no?
Yes it does answer my question. If you don't believe in the after life, there is nothing to get saved from, right?

[Green Gaia]

Originally Posted by Victor

I’ve always been curious as to the nature of universalism. To my understanding most UU’s hold that everyone will be saved if there is indeed a God. Can someone expound on this please?

Most UUs would probably respond, "Saved from what?" Many (if not most or all) reject the idea of an eternal place of torture and torment that one must be saved from. Many even reject the idea of sin, so without sin why hell? However, some still find these terms useful and applicable to our lives, albeit in a UU light. For example, Rev. Forrest Church says, I define the word sin simply. It is anything that divides us: within ourselves; against our neighbor; from the ground of our being, the god of all creation. Salvation, from the Latin, means health. The Teutonic words heath, hale, holy, and whole all share the same root. Salvation from sin is, to use St. Paul's word, reconciliation. On those rare yet blessed moments when we make full peace with ourselves, with others, and with our creator, we experience salvation.

That is probably beyond what you were asking, so let me back up and go back to the old Christian Universalist's idea of salvation for all. Universalists as a matter of historical definition are those who believe God to be so loving that all will be reconciled to God's own self. Anything short of "universal salvation," Universalists in the 18th century thought, would fail to comport with the image of God as all-powerful and all-knowing. The doctrine can be traced to the earliest centuries of Church history, and was taught by both Origen and St. Gregory of Nyssa. Universalists in 18th and 19th century North America often believed that the punishment for sin was simply the fate of having to live the life of a sinner, and that this was sufficient and "just retribution" for such conduct. Others believed in something closer to purgatory, while others said it was beyond the understanding of mortals to know what would ultimately transpire before all dwell in "final harmony" with God. The Universalists of the 19th century were "people of the land" (as opposed to the Unitarians who were thought of as "people of the city"). They were often farmers, poor people who found hope and goodness in this idea of universal salvation. It was through this understanding that a good God would save everyone, so therefore everyone is important to God came about and gave rise to the first social actions by the religious group against slavery and other social ills. It was the Universalists in the north that were the loudest opposition to slavery. The Unitarians (who were the rich folk) were quiet on the matter since they were implicated in the slave trade. Their businesses profited from slavery. But again, I'm getting off track... how about I stop there for now.

[BrandonE]

Originally Posted by Victor

You seem to fit the Deist philosphy, no?
Yes it does answer my question. If you don't believe in the after life, there is nothing to get saved from, right?

I think of myself as a pantheist (monist), and as a monist, I don't totally agree with the "first cause" definition of god, but honestly, my theology is pretty fluid and poorly defined.

Also, while I don't believe much in the afterlife, I'm more agnostic about it than anything else. If I turn out to be wrong about the afterlife (afterall, how could I REALLY know one way or the other?), I do think that it will be a universalist experience; so no, I don't believe there's anything to be "saved" from.

So now that I've explained my position, what's yours? I see you have Catholic listed as your religion. Do you believe in heaven, purgatory, and hell? What prompted you to ask about universalism?

[PolyHedral]

There's always the wiki article.

[Victor]

Originally Posted by Maize

Most UUs would probably respond, "Saved from what?" Many (if not most or all) reject the idea of an eternal place of torture and torment that one must be saved from. Many even reject the idea of sin, so without sin why hell? However, some still find these terms useful and applicable to our lives, albeit in a UU light. For example, Rev. Forrest Church says, I define the word sin simply. It is anything that divides us: within ourselves; against our neighbor; from the ground of our being, the god of all creation. Salvation, from the Latin, means health. The Teutonic words heath, hale, holy, and whole all share the same root. Salvation from sin is, to use St. Paul's word, reconciliation. On those rare yet blessed moments when we make full peace with ourselves, with others, and with our creator, we experience salvation.

That is probably beyond what you were asking, so let me back up and go back to the old Christian Universalist's idea of salvation for all. Universalists as a matter of historical definition are those who believe God to be so loving that all will be reconciled to God's own self. Anything short of "universal salvation," Universalists in the 18th century thought, would fail to comport with the image of God as all-powerful and all-knowing. The doctrine can be traced to the earliest centuries of Church history, and was taught by both Origen and St. Gregory of Nyssa. Universalists in 18th and 19th century North America often believed that the punishment for sin was simply the fate of having to live the life of a sinner, and that this was sufficient and "just retribution" for such conduct. Others believed in something closer to purgatory, while others said it was beyond the understanding of mortals to know what would ultimately transpire before all dwell in "final harmony" with God. The Universalists of the 19th century were "people of the land" (as opposed to the Unitarians who were thought of as "people of the city"). They were often farmers, poor people who found hope and goodness in this idea of universal salvation. It was through this understanding that a good God would save everyone, so therefore everyone is important to God came about and gave rise to the first social actions by the religious group against slavery and other social ills. It was the Universalists in the north that were the loudest opposition to slavery. The Unitarians (who were the rich folk) were quiet on the matter since they were implicated in the slave trade. Their businesses profited from slavery. But again, I'm getting off track... how about I stop there for now.

So in the minds of the Christian Universalists or any other UU who holds to the "everybody is saved" ideology, what happens to the very evil in the afterlife?

Is this an endangered species in UU circles?