Universalism (punishment, reject, Creator, Deist, salvation)

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by Victor

Thank you Lilithu.
I was raised around controversy and disagreements all my life. My family make-up is one that can make a good Soprano sequel to say the least. Everything to a lesbian cousin, Mexican cartel, to a Catholic Bishop in Mexico, are in my large family. I say this because this idea of doing good for "inherent goodness in humanity" is so muddled in the grand scope of things that I hold almost zero hope for it. Just being honest... . Granted, I realize my view is tainted with pain and a variety of visuals that I can trigger at any moment.

This idea of we can move forward on our own, without the need of assistance from the divine is out right scary to me Lilithu. I've seen how far tolerance, disagreements, etc. can be stretched without a person or group turning to violence. If it does some how manages to work without violence it turns into thousands of fragmented groups who find it difficult to eat in the same table.

Tell me Lilithu, do you think my perception is unrealistic in the scope of universalism?

But we're not without assistance from the Divine, Victor. Universalists have never denied that we get help from the Divine. (Unitarians otoh...) The Spirit moves in us. Even if you believe in supernatural intervention, what does the Divine do other than soften our hearts, inspire us, give us courage... I've read about burning bushes and walking on water but in my lifetime, the holiest things I've ever seen are Spirit-filled people standing up for what's right. Heck, even if I had personally witnessed water turning into wine, I would still contend that the holiest things I've ever seen are Spirit-filled people looking out for one another. From the Universalist perspective, humans are inherently good [i]because[/b] of God. It is not a worship of the self. And it is not a denial of Divinity. far from it.

When you talk of needing assistance from God in order to be good, what do you envision? Surely it can't just be a Divine threat of hell or a Divine bribe of heaven. If the motivation for goodness is only external, then what happens after the Last Judgement? What happens after the "good" have been gathered into heaven and the "bad" have been cast into hell? The "good" now no longer have a threat hanging over them; nor do they have a promise of any greater reward than they already have. So if they have no inherent goodness in them, what's to prevent them from falling into sin again?

The only way it could work is if you believe that there is some inherent goodness in at least some of humanity. I know you believe this Victor, even if you're feeling discouraged by us at the moment, because I see it in Catholic doctrine. Humanity is fallen and imperfect but we still bear a likeness to God. Afterall, you're Catholic, not Calvinist.

[Victor]

Originally Posted by lilithu

But we're not without assistance from the Divine, Victor. Universalists have never denied that we get help from the Divine. (Unitarians otoh...) The Spirit moves in us. Even if you believe in supernatural intervention, what does the Divine do other than soften our hearts, inspire us, give us courage... I've read about burning bushes and walking on water but in my lifetime, the holiest things I've ever seen are Spirit-filled people standing up for what's right. Heck, even if I had personally witnessed water turning into wine, I would still contend that the holiest things I've ever seen are Spirit-filled people looking out for one another. From the Universalist perspective, humans are inherently good because[/b] of God. It is not a worship of the self. And it is not a denial of Divinity. far from it.

Well that certainly clarified things immensely. I really was looking at the universalism movement as a non-theistic approach of moving toward good. Hence my response.

Originally Posted by lilithu

When you talk of needing assistance from God in order to be good, what do you envision? Surely it can't just be a Divine threat of hell or a Divine bribe of heaven. If the motivation for goodness is only external, then what happens after the Last Judgement? What happens after the "good" have been gathered into heaven and the "bad" have been cast into hell? The "good" now no longer have a threat hanging over them; nor do they have a promise of any greater reward than they already have. So if they have no inherent goodness in them, what's to prevent them from falling into sin again?

The short answer is that God will take even the lowest motive (fear of hell/reward) and help form the person from there. The intention is to form the person/bring about a change. Love would definately be the best, but certainly not the only.

Originally Posted by lilithu

The only way it could work is if you believe that there is some inherent goodness in at least some of humanity. I know you believe this Victor, even if you're feeling discouraged by us at the moment, because I see it in Catholic doctrine. Humanity is fallen and imperfect but we still bear a likeness to God. Afterall, you're Catholic, not Calvinist.

I certainly do see it. I just don't see inherent goodness being sufficient to bringing about any unity. Without something external assiting. I think history has shown just how brutal and intolerant we can be. Unless we are all flat out anarchist and tolerate absolutely everything, I hold little hope for it.