Universalism (punishment, reject, Creator, Deist, salvation)

[Green Gaia]

Originally Posted by Victor

So in the minds of the Christian Universalists or any other UU who holds to the "everybody is saved" ideology, what happens to the very evil in the afterlife?

They will be reconciled with God.

Originally Posted by Victor

Is this an endangered species in UU circles?

Quite. Although there still exists the universalist ideas in Christian circles, too.

You might appreciate this story: Hosea Ballou was a 19th century preacher of universal salvation, the final harmony of all souls with God – God’s nature is love - all are ultimately forgiven – no one goes to Hell – a controversial doctrine then and now. One afternoon he was riding the circuit in the New Hampshire hills with a Baptist minister, arguing theology as they traveled. At one point, the Baptist looked over and said, "Brother Ballou, if I were a Universalist and feared not the fires of Hell, I could hit you over the head, steal your horse and saddle, and ride away, and I'd still go to heaven." Hosea Ballou, without hesitation, turned to him and said, "If you were a Universalist, the idea would never occur to you."

This may or may not be a completely true story, but it points to an important ethical truth – the importance of being good - for nothing.

[BrandonE]

Originally Posted by Victor

I'd love to answer, but this is a UU forum and for eduction of UU stance only.

Thanks. I'm new to the forum and didn't realize quite how the divisions worked. I'll check it out.

[Green Gaia]

Originally Posted by BrandonE

What prompted you to ask about universalism?

Because I made a contest.

[Victor]

Originally Posted by Maize

They will be reconciled with God.

So why in their minds should I care to do good then?

Originally Posted by Maize

Quite. Although there still exists the universalist ideas in Christian circles, too.

You might appreciate this story: Hosea Ballou was a 19th century preacher of universal salvation, the final harmony of all souls with God – God’s nature is love - all are ultimately forgiven – no one goes to Hell – a controversial doctrine then and now. One afternoon he was riding the circuit in the New Hampshire hills with a Baptist minister, arguing theology as they traveled. At one point, the Baptist looked over and said, "Brother Ballou, if I were a Universalist and feared not the fires of Hell, I could hit you over the head, steal your horse and saddle, and ride away, and I'd still go to heaven." Hosea Ballou, without hesitation, turned to him and said, "If you were a Universalist, the idea would never occur to you."

This may or may not be a completely true story, but it points to an important ethical truth – the importance of being good - for nothing.

Being good for nothing......I guess that answers my above question. I don't know what else to say....

[Victor]

Originally Posted by Maize

Because I made a contest.

It was gonna get to this eventually Amy.....really I was....

[BrandonE]

Originally Posted by Maize

Because I made a contest.

Ah. Well, I enjoyed the question and answer, so your contest was successful I guess.

OT: it's rather irritating that I can't even quote a post that contains a link without expunging said link first.

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by Victor

I’ve always been curious as to the nature of universalism. To my understanding most UU’s hold that everyone will be saved if there is indeed a God. Can someone expound on this please?

Hey Victor, namaste.

Universalism, with a capital 'U' is a liberal Christian sect (the way that Lutheranism and Mormonism are sects) that rejected Calvin's ideology of "limited atonement." (As compared to Unitarianism, which rejected Calvin's ideology of "total depravity.") The Universalist argument in a nutshell goes like this:
1) God is all good.
2) God is all powerful.
3) An all good God would desire for all people to be saved and an all powerful God would be able to make it so.
4) Therefore, everyone is saved.

Universalism started in England where it still exists, was brought to America by John Murray and was most eloquently defended by his disciple, Hosea Ballou, in "A Treatise on Atonement." In the U.S., Universalism as a sect merged with Unitarianism, but as a religious belief system there are still people who are Universalists, not UUs.

universalism with a little 'u' basically refers to the same belief but not specifically to the sect.

As Maize said, many UUs will ask "saved from what?" which honestly drives me bonkers. I don't believe in everlasting fire and brimstone. But neither do I believe that everything is hunky dory just the way it is. In fact, it seems quite obvious to me that the world is in bad shape, and that people are in bad shape (I certainly am) and that we need saving. By "salvation" I don't mean supernatural intervention. I mean the Beloved Community - us saving each other. (As St. Theresa said, on earth Christ has no hands but ours...) For me the good news of UU isn't "I'm ok; you're ok" because frankly that doesn't do a person who is suffering one bit of good. That's the self-congratulatory message of the over-privileged. For me the good news of UU is "we are all in this together." Most all of us will need help at some time or another, and when we do, we'll be there for each other. We won't leave anyone behind. If somone is suffering, then we all are suffering.

So do I believe in universal salvation? Yes, of course I do. As far as I am concerned it's the only kind of salvation there is.

[Green Gaia]

Originally Posted by lilithu

As Maize said, many UUs will ask "saved from what?" which honestly drives me bonkers. I don't believe in everlasting fire and brimstone. But neither do I believe that everything is hunky dory just the way it is. In fact, it seems quite obvious to me that the world is in bad shape, and that people are in bad shape (I certainly am) and that we need saving. By "salvation" I don't mean supernatural intervention. I mean the Beloved Community - us saving each other. (As St. Theresa said, on earth Christ has no hands but ours...) For me the good news of UU isn't "I'm ok; you're ok" because frankly that doesn't do a person who is suffering one bit of good. That's the self-congratulatory message of the over-privileged.

I will admit that I used to be one of those who would answer, "saved from what?" Not because I thought everything was just fine but it was more of a reaction to that word, "salvation" which has very Christian connotations for most and definitely did for me. There is this idea that if you don't have salvation then you are doomed to a lake of fire for eternity. Which is something UUs (I dare say all) reject. I think we UUs can use the word and not mean the alternative is everlasting torture. The torture is now in this lifetime, and so can salvation be found.

[James the Persian]

Originally Posted by Maize

I will admit that I used to be one of those who would answer, "saved from what?" Not because I thought everything was just fine but it was more of a reaction to that word, "salvation" which has very Christian connotations for most and definitely did for me. There is this idea that if you don't have salvation then you are doomed to a lake of fire for eternity. Which is something UUs (I dare say all) reject. I think we UUs can use the word and not mean the alternative is everlasting torture. The torture is now in this lifetime, and so can salvation be found.

What if the question is not 'saved from what' but 'saved for what'? Would that make a difference to how you view the Christian concept of salvation? It certainly did to me when I found that was the question in Orthodoxy. Personally, I think that question is more compatible with universalism/apokatastasis. It seems as though St. Gregory of Nyssa would likely agree, and he's one of my favourite theologians for his loving hope that all would be saved. What do you (all of you UUs) think?

James

P.S.
Just as a minor point of clarification, whilst St. Gregory of Nyssa did hold to apokatastasis as a personal belief and did write about it he did