The Boundaries of Unitarian Universalism (Jesus, ritual, moral, rejecting)

[Davidium]

I dont usually like to cross post things... but I really do want your all's opinions on what I wrote here. Setting Boundaries upon UU's is somewhat controversial... How can you tell if you are or are not a Unitarian Universalist?

What I wrote was in response to the below question....

David wrote: Quote:the ability to set boundaries beyond "Belief in God through nature and reason" is the reason I believe that Deism can never organize as a real religion

I find that a very interesting observation, David. The UUA Principles and Purposes are so broad and general, however, that it would seem practically anyone would fit into them. How would that differ from Deism? Isn't Deism actually more confined that UUism given belief in 'one only God' whereas UUs admit of Wiccan and other earth-based spiritualities which surely would not seem to be what Paine and the Deists of his day had in mind.

I guess what I'm saying is that if UUs can form congregations, why couldn't Deists, the former being more 'theologically' inclusive and open than the latter?

Here was my response...

Ah... but you would be surprised how many people do not fit within the UU Principles....

The inherent worth and dignity of every person;

This could exclude anyone who uses a religious or social basis for believing their own particular culture or people are superior to others.... Think about it... How many people believe that the people of their culture are superior to the people of another culture... I hate to say it, but that is most of the human race...


Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;

Once again, this is something many might agree with in principle, but fall far short from it in practice... And the Equity is indeed something that many people dont even agree with.


Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;

This is also something that many people fail miserably at... accepting one another. From Homophobia to racism, to the guy that stood outside my church office and screamed "I Rebuke You In The Name of Jesus!!!" last week... Accepting all different kinds of people is something the human race has failed at miserably


A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;

I know when I was an evangelical baptist, we certainly did not sponser a free and responsible search for truth and meaning. Truth was in the book, and meaning was from the pulpit. Searching for Truth and Meaning was the path to be mislead by satan into hell. Searching was a denial of Faith.


The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;

The right of Conscience is a way to say that you are free to be a heretic. You are the person who develops your beliefs, and no one can tell you that you are wrong. So, we believe that even those who are not UU's have the right to their beliefs. Now, how many other religions state that Heresy is not only accepted, it is a right? Not many. Democracy in our congregations is another way to say "Congregational Polity"... and there are only 3 denominations I know of that use Congregational Polity form of government. Most use a Heirarchical or Presbyter form of polity... and many people are more comfortable with that then they are with a congregational form. Those people who believe in a Top down Church Heirarchy would not find a home in the UUA. We are governed from the Bottom up...


The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;

Those who believe in strong national isolationism would not fit within in a boundary that supports world community.... And Nationalism is coming back into vogue around the world... and here at home.

Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

There are two parts to this one... both of which would leave quite a few people outside the bounds of the UUA. The first interpretation is the one that is most common... and that is the environmental view. That those who do not care about protecting the environment could well find themselves outside the boundaries of the UUA... The other is for those who cannot accept that all life is connected...

So, let us see who might find themselves outside the boundaries of the UUA... Racists, Homophobes, religious fundamentalists, isolationists, separatists, bigots of all stripes, those with no social or moral conscience, and even the purely apathetic could arguably be outside of the boundaries set by the UUA principles and purposes..

That being said, the UUA, and UU Churches rarely tell someone they are not welcome... because we have hope that even the worst person can find illumination and enlightenment... That maybe by coming into community a homophobe can give up his hatred of gays... or an isolationist can find the benefit of world community.

In most cases, it is up to the individual to decide if the UUA is the spiritual home for them... not UU leaders, Congregational presidents, or even ministers. There are a few people I have always wondered why they have chosen to be UU's, knowing their social, political, and religious beliefs... but it is their call to make, not mine. They decide if and how they fit within the boundaries.

There are a few of those boundary lines that I come close to crossing... and have decided that I barely stay within the lines. For one, I believe everyone comes into this world with the same inherent worth and dignity, but not everyone keeps it. I think that you can surrender your inherent worth and dignity by horrendous acts... Such as those who commit genocide.

The right of conscience demands we let them decide if they fit within the bounds.

The only times I have ever heard of someone being asked to leave a UU church, either the person was a major disruption (a fundamentalist who would stand up in services and begin quoting scripture and telling everyone they were going to hell) or they were a potential danger (a man convicted of repeated pedophilia). If there are cases where this was not the case, then the UU responsible was at fault, in my opinion. Every effort should be made to allow the person who might seem outside the bounds to grow within them.

When I was involved in the United Deist Church, we did have a set of Tenets that we tried to promote... Here they are...

Quote:" I freely believe in God as being discovered through nature and reason, rejecting revealed religion and its authority over humanity. I believe that all humans are equal. Further, as God has not shown favor for one people over another and has given us all that we need, that we should follow God's example and give to others as we can."

There are many Deists who disagreed with the Tenets... in fact, I would have to say that I now disagree with parts of it... namely about "rejecting revealed religion"... Some said that there should be no requirement for Deists to be charitable... others said that they didnt think God had provided all we needed... that was too much like a violation of Free-will. The loudest arguement against the Tenets is that they sounded too much like a new kind of dogma...

We certainly did not mean them as a new kind of dogma, but I hope you see my point.

Religion is about community, not about belief. I dont believe Deism requires community... you can be a Deist all by yourself. If you are all alone in the universe, you can still be a Deist....

You cannot still be a Unitarian Universalist if you are all alone... for UU has much more to do with your relationship with others than it has to do with your own internal beliefs.

Think back on the UU Boundaries set by the Principles and Purposes.... I would be willing to bet that those principles set boundaries that the majority of humanity would not fit within.... But we have hope! That is why we continue our work in the world. I hope someday that you are right, that the UUA principles and purposes are so well accepted that they exclude almost no one...

When that day comes, I can retire...

David

Are we, as some people would have it be believed, a religion with no boundaries? Or are we rather a religion where the boundaries are simply drawn differently, and where we let each person decide for themselves if they fit within those boundaries or not?

Yours in Faith,

David

[Ciscokid]

David:

Interesting stuff! I do have a question....I would think that traditional Christians and perhaps Muslims would not fit into the UU framework very well since they are exclusivists. Would it be correct to state that many members are "misfits" [ie, unorthodox] who have tired of the ultra conservative/traditional brands of their faith and have stepped outside that box and clung to UUism?

[Davidium]

Many members are as you describe, including myself...

I will tell a quick story... When I had not been a UU for very long, I was attending my first UU church Conference... It was a local conference in the city I was living in. They had those name badges you fill out yourself, the ones with the colored border.

Now, I have a tendency to write pretty big, and not paying attention, I wrote my name where the end went outside of the colored box...

I asked the lady at the registration desk if I could get a new one. She looked at me and said "Oh, it's ok. If you could stay in the box you wouldnt have become a UU."

Those who cannot accept the validity of other faith traditions and belief systems would, I believe, fall outside the boundaries of the UUA.... and as I said, that is the majority of this world.

Yours in faith,

David

[Green Gaia]

Originally Posted by Davidium

Are we, as some people would have it be believed, a religion with no boundaries? Or are we rather a religion where the boundaries are simply drawn differently, and where we let each person decide for themselves if they fit within those boundaries or not?

Yours in Faith,

David

I think we have very clearly defined boundaries... the difference is, we don't try to fit EVERYTHING inside those boundaries. We realize there are some things in this world that are subjective and based on personal experience; the nature of God, for example. We don't attempt to define that or ask that all UUs come to a consenous on that is.

We had a recent vistor to our church who was very confused about what we were and what we believed. She asked, "How can you say what you believe (as a church) if the answer to every question is, "whatever" " She was a bit confused on how we deal with certain issues. I do not believe that our answer to everything is "whatever" the difference is we believe in individuals making up their own mind in regards to matters that none of us can prove one way or another.

As you say, there are many people who do not fit within the UU Principles.

[Ciscokid]

Originally Posted by Maize

I think we have very clearly defined boundaries... the difference is, we don't try to fit EVERYTHING inside those boundaries. We realize there are some things in this world that are subjective and based on personal experience; the nature of God, for example. We don't attempt to define that or ask that all UUs come to a consenous on that is.

We had a recent vistor to our church who was very confused about what we were and what we believed. She asked, "How can you say what you believe (as a church) if the answer to every question is, "whatever" " She was a bit confused on how we deal with certain issues. I do not believe that our answer to everything is "whatever" the difference is we believe in individuals making up their own mind in regards to matters that none of us can prove one way or another.

As you say, there are many people who do not fit within the UU Principles.

I had the same reaction from some of my Christian buddies when I informed them that I was leaving the traditional Christian church and am now a member of a UU congregation near my house.

They had a very hard time trying to understand the evironment that I submerse myself in on Sunday mornings...what's funny is that I feel "at home" in what they find confusing and contradictory.

[Sunstone]

Originally Posted by Davidium

I dont usually like to cross post things... but I really do want your all's opinions on what I wrote here. Setting Boundaries upon UU's is somewhat controversial... How can you tell if you are or are not a Unitarian Universalist?

What I wrote was in response to the below question....


Here was my response...


Are we, as some people would have it be believed, a religion with no boundaries? Or are we rather a religion where the boundaries are simply drawn differently, and where we let each person decide for themselves if they fit within those boundaries or not?

Yours in Faith,

David

I think UUism is simply a religion with different boundaries than many other religions. For instance, I don't know of many UUs who condone racism. That seems to be one of the boundaries that UU has set up and maintained.

For people in many other religions, it may look like UUism doesn't have any boundaries, but that seems to me to be a superficial view of UUism.

[Nozem]

'Equality',& 'equal worth' are concepts which cause problems. The paradox is that those people who believe in Equality are ultimately claiming a moral and ethical superiority to those people who do not adhere to this perspective, so a hierachy is formed . I tend to think that the basis is of my own perspective of Unitarian Universalism is our recognition that divinity/the transcendent force , the sublime 'whatever' , CAN manifest his/her/its self in diverse forms,simultaneously in different faiths and cultures. So that no one faith can claim an exclusive access to divinity. Therefore people who follow a sectarian religious path are excluded. We have discussed in another thread recently that we are careful not to seek conversion in the sense that we do not try to poach people from other religions who feel that they have found their true affinity. But we want to be there for people who maybe have arrived at a similar place to ourselves.