The politics of Jesus

[Dunemeister]

Originally Posted by LittlePinky82

Well just by today's standards Jesus would probably be considered a socialist. Can you give a review of the book? Sounds interesting.

I wish I could. The book was written in 1972, and it's still very influential. You can get it on Amazon.

I plan to offer something of a reflection on his book in this thread, so stay tuned. Of course, it'd be best for you to read his stuff first-hand; I can't guarantee I'm exegeting him exactly right.

[Jeremy Mason]

Originally Posted by Dunemeister

The title of this thread is taken from a book by the same name which I've just finished reading. I'd like to discuss some of its ideas and contents. This thread is open to anyone regardless of political or religious leanings.

Before I present any positive case, I'd like to start off by asking a questions, just to see where people stand, especially Christians (although others are welcome to join in).

Are Jesus and his ministry relevant to social/political/economic, as opposed to just personal, ethics? If so, in what ways? Or is Jesus only relevant to personal ethics?

I believe when Jesus said,"Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, give to God what is God's" and "My kingdom is not of this world", he was confirming the separation between church and state. If the government happens to be Christian, then communism is a bell ringer for me.

[Dunemeister]

Okay, this next question is mostly for those who consider themselves Christians.

To what extent is the Christian required by piety (religious conscience), as opposed to patriotism, to obey the state?

For instance, is the Christian required to do military service during times of conscription? Can that military service include actual combat roles? If not, can it include non-combat roles, such as medic, cook or chaplain? If a Christian in a non-combat military role is commanded to participate in violence, should the Christian refuse?

[stephenw]

Originally Posted by Dunemeister

Okay, this next question is mostly for those who consider themselves Christians.

To what extent is the Christian required by piety (religious conscience), as opposed to patriotism, to obey the state?

For instance, is the Christian required to do military service during times of conscription? Can that military service include actual combat roles? If not, can it include non-combat roles, such as medic, cook or chaplain? If a Christian in a non-combat military role is commanded to participate in violence, should the Christian refuse?

My Grandfathers uncle was called up for the First World war, he refused to fight and became a front line medic, I think that was a Christian way to go about it.
As regards obeying the state don't most Christian religions teach that canon law is above civil law?
I consider myself a Christian, but I don't think that I owe unconditional allegience to the state.

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Originally Posted by Dunemeister

Okay, this next question is mostly for those who consider themselves Christians.

To what extent is the Christian required by piety (religious conscience), as opposed to patriotism, to obey the state?

I think it depends what part of the Bible you believe takes precedence.

If you look at the Epistles, you see that Paul claims that all Christians should obey secular authority, since all authority is appointed by God and therefore legitimate, and disobeying it is tantamount to disobeying God.

If you go by Jesus' teachings in the Gospels, you see that he gives little to no regard to secular authority; tells his followers to engage in meekness, peacemaking, and non-resistance to persecution; and preaches that we should trust God to see to our needs. I think that all of these are generally incompatible with fighting in a war.

[LittlePinky82]

Originally Posted by Dunemeister

Okay, this next question is mostly for those who consider themselves Christians.

To what extent is the Christian required by piety (religious conscience), as opposed to patriotism, to obey the state?

For instance, is the Christian required to do military service during times of conscription? Can that military service include actual combat roles? If not, can it include non-combat roles, such as medic, cook or chaplain? If a Christian in a non-combat military role is commanded to participate in violence, should the Christian refuse?

Well once you join the military at least in the States you can't pick and choose when to go into battle. Sorry I don't know other country's rules about the military but I'm assuming that's the same too. Here we have a volunteer army so you don't have to join if it's not for you. I don't join the army because I'm not a fighter and I know that I could someday go to war. I think being a medic or cook would be a good thing. However do medics and cooks have to do combat any? What about chaplains? If you're in a country where you're free to have the choice to join or not of course but I'm not sure about country's where you're mandatory to have service in the army and actually go to training. I think South Korea is a good example of that.

[LittlePinky82]

Originally Posted by stephenw

My Grandfathers uncle was called up for the First World war, he refused to fight and became a front line medic, I think that was a Christian way to go about it.
As regards obeying the state don't most Christian religions teach that canon law is above civil law?
I consider myself a Christian, but I don't think that I owe unconditional allegience to the state.

I can't remember the exact verse but I know there's a verse where it states to follow your nations laws and not be a trouble maker because if you're a trouble maker it'll look negatively on God. Anyone know which verse I'm talking about?

[Dunemeister]

Originally Posted by LittlePinky82

I can't remember the exact verse but I know there's a verse where it states to follow your nations laws and not be a trouble maker because if you're a trouble maker it'll look negatively on God. Anyone know which verse I'm talking about?

Romans 13 is used by many to suggest that POV. Later on, I'll argue that that's a misreading, but it'll take a while to get there.