Christian responsibility to beg for mercy (Jesus Christ, Earth, gospel, Kingdom)

[angellous_evangellous]

Originally Posted by evearael

He has given us the means. It is our responsibility to use them.

Still not a reason to forgo begging God to change his mind.

We have the means... but do we have the ability and the will? God can accomplish effortlessly what we can accomplish only by means of great sacrafice and toil. We didn't create ourselves with the ability to sin. Who in their right mind would create evil and then watch from affar the sufferings of the powerless?

[evearael]

A good parent would not place a child in a briar patch full of certain misery, and being able to effortlessly prevent a child's suffering, continue to allow the child to endure evil.

A good parent will give their child a chance to walk, knowing full well they will likely fall.

Evil for growth is a perverse dualism. We can grow from the good alone.

I always saw Christianity as dualistic with the opposition of God and Satan, but that is just an outsider's perspective. Good cannot exist without evil to give it contrast. Explain how growth is possible from good alone. Explain how good can exist without the contrast of evil. Explain how the struggle between good and evil is perverse (in my humble opinion, the perversity lies in using free will to choose evil over good).

[evearael]

Still not a reason to forgo begging God to change his mind.

You may beg all you wish. I beg for the wisdom and ability to help others more effectively.

but do we have the ability and the will?

I believe so.

We didn't create ourselves with the ability to sin.

By that logic and by choosing to bear children, shouldn't the parents shoulder the blame for bringing a child into the world knowing full well they would sin?

Who in their right mind would create evil and then watch from affar the sufferings of the powerless?

By choosing to bear a child, one chooses to bring another life into this world with the capacity for evil and to bear suffering. Is that a moral choice to you, and if so, how?

[angellous_evangellous]

Originally Posted by evearael

I believe so.

I'm not a complete pessimist, nor a nihilist, but the ending of evil IMO is the power of God alone. If we can end it ourselves, we have no need for God and we can worship ourselves.

By that logic and by choosing to bear children, shouldn't the parents shoulder the blame for bringing a child into the world knowing full well they would sin?

From my logic, God alone is responsible because God created humanity with the capacity for sin. God also gave us the desire to have children and the command to do so. So no, I don't think that parents are to blame... unless, of course, they breed children to sin - like a terrorist group having children to be future soldiers. It's gross, but it does happen.

By choosing to bear a child, one chooses to bring another life into this world with the capacity for evil and to bear suffering. Is that a moral choice to you, and if so, how?

One cannot use my logic to come to that conclusion.

[angellous_evangellous]

Originally Posted by evearael

Good cannot exist without evil to give it contrast.

In the begginng, God.

Explain how growth is possible from good alone.

A meaningful metaphor is impossible in this fallen world. The myth of the garden of Eden before the serpent is introduced is the only metaphor of a world without sin. Growth occurs from walking with God. God creates man and woman without evil and walks with them. They can learn only good things from God and grow only in the good.

Explain how good can exist without the contrast of evil. Explain how the struggle between good and evil is perverse (in my humble opinion, the perversity lies in using free will to choose evil over good).

It is perverse to think that evil allows good to exist by contrast. Good can exist all by itself, a good in and of itself. If there is no evil to choose, one can only choose the good.

[angellous_evangellous]

Originally Posted by evearael

Explain how the struggle between good and evil is perverse (in my humble opinion, the perversity lies in using free will to choose evil over good).

The struggle between good and evil is noble. The thought that good can only exist because of evil is perverse.

I agree that for us, perversity lies in using free will to choose evil over good. So I consider a philosophy that considers good to exist only in contrast to evil to be perverse. A good can be good in and of itself. That good is God.

[evearael]

If we can end it ourselves, we have no need for God and we can worship ourselves.

Our ability to end it is a gift from God, and I am most grateful for it.

From my logic, God alone is responsible because God created humanity with the capacity for sin. God also gave us the desire to have children and the command to do so. So no, I don't think that parents are to blame... unless, of course, they breed children to sin - like a terrorist group having children to be future soldiers. It's gross, but it does happen.

So do you give God full credit for every good act of humankind?

One cannot use my logic to come to that conclusion.

Who in their right mind would create evil and then watch from affar the sufferings of the powerless?

Is it good to create good and then watch from affar the blessings that stem from it? Let me clarify my point... is it more evil to create evil than good to create good, acknowledging the choice a person has between them? I feel the answer to that question stems from the following: do you see this world as having more evil than good?

In the begginng, God.

Do you feel good is an expansive enough term to adequately describe God?

A meaningful metaphor is impossible in this fallen world.

Again from Ecclesiates, 3:1...
"There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under heaven"
I do not view the fall as negative. It is simply a metaphor for the end of the innocence of childhood as applied for humanity. Adam was created outside of the garden, and then placed within it... he knew the alternative and chose it anyway. I don't see leaving the garden in any more of a negative light than I see leaving home and striking out on my own as an adult.

The myth of the garden of Eden before the serpent is introduced is the only metaphor of a world without sin. Growth occurs from walking with God. God creates man and woman without evil and walks with them. They can learn only good things from God and grow only in the good.

If growth was possible by simply 'walking with God' in the garden, then couldn't the exercise in free will, eating of the apple, be seen as the logical result of said growth?
Without evil there is no appreciation for good.

It is perverse to think that evil allows good to exist by contrast.

Again, how so?

Good can exist all by itself, a good in and of itself. If there is no evil to choose, one can only choose the good.

If one is only has a single choice, how can their choice be good or evil? The choice simply exists, void of morality.

Here is another question... would you prefer to be back in the garden? Do you believe you would've learned "only good things from God and grow only in the good"? Do you feel that all that learning and walking with Godcouldhave led to any other choice? How do you reconcile blaming God for the evil in the world and then claiming that Adam and Eve "can learn only good things from God and grow only in the good"?

[evearael]

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