Help with the Trinity (Jesus Christ, priest, Creator, Earth, gospel)

[The_Evelyonian]

Could someone help me with the doctrine of the Trinity. I just find it confusing and I feel like I'm missing something.

Thanks

The_Evelyonian

[Victor]

Sure, what would you like to know?
Here is a link of early Christian writers on the Trinity that can perhaps give you some insight.
Check it out: Trinity and the Fathers

~Victor

[jorylore]

You probably already know this but:
"According to the Athanasian Creed there are three divine Persons (the Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost), each said to be eternal, each said to be almighty, none greater or less than another, each said to be God, and yet together being but one God. Other statements of the dogma emphasize that these three "Persons" are not separate and distinct individuals but are three modes in which the divine essence exists. Thus some Trinitarians emphasize their belief that Jesus Christ is God. "

It's not a Bible teaching thus I don't believe in the Trinity but if you want an point of view from the opposite end of the spectrum, I would be happy to help.

[michel]

The Catholic stance on the trinity;

Scott posted this:-http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14373&highlight=Cantalamessa
OME, MAY 21, 2005 (Zenit) - In a commentary on this Sunday's Gospel passage, Capuchin Father Raniero Cantalamessa, the preacher of the Pontifical Household, comments that the Trinity is a model for the whole human community because it shows how love creates unity out of diversity.

John (3:16-18)

At that time, Jesus said to Nicodemus: "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him. He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

The Source of Love

The second reading of today's liturgy, taken from the second letter of St. Paul to the Corinthians, is the one that most directly evokes the mystery of the Most Holy Trinity: "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you." But, why do Christians believe in the Trinity? Isn't it difficult enough to believe that God exists, that we must also have added to it the enigma that he is "one and triune?" There are some today who would not be unhappy to leave the Trinity to one side, to be able to dialogue better with Jews and Muslims, who profess faith in a God who is rigidly one.

Christians believe that God is triune because they believe that God is love! It is the revelation of God as love, made by Jesus, which has obliges us to admit the Trinity. It is not a human invention. There is no love for the void, no love that is not directed to someone. So we must ask: who does God love to be defined as love? A first answer might be: He loves mankind. But we have existed for some millions of years, no more. And before then, who did God love? He could not in fact have begun to be love at a certain point in time, because God cannot change.

Second answer: Before then he loved the cosmos, the universe. But the universe has existed for some thousands of millions of years. Before then, who did God love to be able to define himself as love? We cannot say that he loved himself because to love oneself is not love, but egoism or, as psychologists say, narcissism.

Here is the answer of Christian revelation. God is love in himself, before time, because he has always had in himself a Son, the word, whom he loves with an infinite love, that is, in the Holy Spirit. In all love there are always three realities or subjects: one who loves, one who is loved, and the love that unites them.

The God of Christian revelation is one and triune because he is communion of love. Theology has made use of the term "nature" or "substance" to indicate unity in God, and of the term "person" to indicate the distinction. Because of this we say that our God is one God in three persons. The Christian doctrine of the Trinity is not a regression, a compromise between monotheism and polytheism. It is a step further that only God himself could make the human mind take.

Let us now turn to some practical considerations. The Trinity is the model of every human community, from the most simple and elemental, which is the family, to the universal Church. It shows how love creates unity out of diversity: unity of intentions, of thought, of will; diversity of subjects, of characteristics and, in the human realm, of sex. And we see, specifically, what a family can learn from the Trinitarian model.

If we read the New Testament with care, we observe a sort of rule. Each one of the three divine persons does not speak about himself, but about the other; does not attract attention to himself, but to the other. Every time the Father speaks in the Gospel he does so always to reveal something of the Son. Jesus, in turn, speaks only of the Father. When the Holy Spirit reaches a believer's heart, he does not teach him to say his name, which in Hebrew is "Ruah," but teaches him to say "Abba," which is the Father's name.

Let's try to think what this style would bring about if it were transferred to family life. The father, who is not so concerned about asserting his authority as that of the mother; the mother, who before teaching the child to say "Mommy," teaches him to say "Daddy." If this style was imitated in our families and communities, they would truly become a reflection of the Trinity on earth, places where love is the rule that governs everything.

[Italian original published by "Famiglia Cristiana"]

[Translation by ZENIT]

www.catholic.org

In addition:

(I believe this came from http://www.catholic.com/library/Trinity.asp)

The doctrine of the Trinity is encapsulated in Matthew 28:19, where Jesus instructs the apostles: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."
but, it is not that easy........ the Catechism teaches:
237 The Trinity is a mystery of faith in the strict sense, one of the "mysteries that are hidden in God, which can never be known unless they are revealed by God". To be sure, God has left traces of his Trinitarian being in his work of creation and in his Revelation throughout the Old Testament. But his inmost Being as Holy Trinity is a mystery that is inaccessible to reason alone or even to Israel's faith before the Incarnation of God's Son and the sending of the Holy Spirit.

It seems that some here need an education about the early Christian church.....
"After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. . . . If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" (Didache 7:1 [A.D. 70]).
Justin Martyr
"We will prove that we worship him reasonably; for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things; but they are ignorant of the mystery which lies therein" (First Apology 13:5–6 [A.D. 151]).
Theophilus of Antioch
"It is the attribute of God, of the most high and almighty and of the living God, not only to be everywhere, but also to see and hear all; for he can in no way be contained in a place. . . . The three days before the luminaries were created are types of the Trinity: God, his Word, and his Wisdom" (To Autolycus 2:15 [A.D. 181]).
There are several more early Christian (Catholic) writers to add to this LONG before the 3rd century. Commentary about the Council of Nicea is often misleading. Everyone needs to understand that just because something is defined at a council does not mean that it was not COMMON knowledge to Christians at the time. Most councils were held when a heretical group forced the Church to infallibly define something as doctrine........ and in this case:
The early Christians were quick to spot new heresies. In the third century, Sabellius, a Libyan priest who was staying at Rome, invented a new one. He claimed there is only one person in the Godhead, so that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all one person with different "offices," rather than three persons who are one being in the Godhead, as the orthodox position holds.
Of course, people immediately recognized that Sabellius’s teaching contradicted the historic faith of the Church, and he was quickly excommunicated. His heresy became known as Sabellianism, Modalism, and Patripassianism. It was called Sabellianism after its founder, Modalism after the three modes or offices which it claimed the one person of the Trinity occupied, and Patripassianism after its implication that the person of the Father (Patri-) suffered (-passion) on the cross when Jesus died.
Because Modalism asserts that there is only one person in the Godhead, it makes nonsense of passages which show Jesus talking to his Father (e.g., John 17), or declaring he is going to be with the Father (John 14:12, 28, 16:10) One office of a person cannot go to be with another office of that person, or say that the two of them will send the Holy Spirit while they remain in heaven (John 14:16-17, 26, 15:26, 16:13–15; Acts 2:32–33).
Modalism quickly died out; it was too contrary to the ancient Christian faith to survive for long. Unfortunately, it was reintroduced in the early twentieth century in the new Pentecostal movement. In its new form, Modalism is often referred to as Jesus Only theology since it claims that Jesus is the only person in the Godhead and that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are merely names, modes, or offices of Jesus. Today the United Pentecostal Church, as well as numerous smaller groups which call themselves "apostolic churches," teach the Jesus Only doctrine.

[The_Evelyonian]

Originally Posted by Victor

Sure, what would you like to know?
Here is a link of early Christian writers on the Trinity that can perhaps give you some insight.
Check it out: Trinity and the Fathers

~Victor

The thing that really confuses me on the Trinity is that there seem to be a number of verses in the Bible that say there is a Trinity and a number of verses that say there is not.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. (This verse implies they are one)

1 Timothy 2:5: For there is one God and one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus. (This verse implies two seperate individuals)

[The_Evelyonian]

Originally Posted by jorylore

You probably already know this but:
"According to the Athanasian Creed there are three divine Persons (the Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost), each said to be eternal, each said to be almighty, none greater or less than another, each said to be God, and yet together being but one God. Other statements of the dogma emphasize that these three "Persons" are not separate and distinct individuals but are three modes in which the divine essence exists. Thus some Trinitarians emphasize their belief that Jesus Christ is God. "

It's not a Bible teaching thus I don't believe in the Trinity but if you want an point of view from the opposite end of the spectrum, I would be happy to help.

Of course! Before I make a decision on anything I want to understand every viewpoint

[The_Evelyonian]

Originally Posted by michel

The Catholic stance on the trinity;

Scott posted this:-http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14373&highlight=Cantalamessa
OME, MAY 21, 2005 (Zenit) - In a commentary on this Sunday's Gospel passage, Capuchin Father Raniero Cantalamessa, the preacher of the Pontifical Household, comments that the Trinity is a model for the whole human community because it shows how love creates unity out of diversity.

John (3:16-18)

At that time, Jesus said to Nicodemus: "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him. He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

The Source of Love

The second reading of today's liturgy, taken from the second letter of St. Paul to the Corinthians, is the one that most directly evokes the mystery of the Most Holy Trinity: "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you." But, why do Christians believe in the Trinity? Isn't it difficult enough to believe that God exists, that we must also have added to it the enigma that he is "one and triune?" There are some today who would not be unhappy to leave the Trinity to one side, to be able to dialogue better with Jews and Muslims, who profess faith in a God who is rigidly one.

Christians believe that God is triune because they believe that God is love! It is the revelation of God as love, made by Jesus, which has obliges us to admit the Trinity. It is not a human invention. There is no love for the void, no love that is not directed to someone. So we must ask: who does God love to be defined as love? A first answer might be: He loves mankind. But we have existed for some millions of years, no more. And before then, who did God love? He could not in fact have begun to be love at a certain point in time, because God cannot change.

Second answer: Before then he loved the cosmos, the universe. But the universe has existed for some thousands of millions of years. Before then, who did God love to be able to define himself as love? We cannot say that he loved himself because to love oneself is not love, but egoism or, as psychologists say, narcissism.

Here is the answer of Christian revelation. God is love in himself, before time, because he has always had in himself a Son, the word, whom he loves with an infinite love, that is, in the Holy Spirit. In all love there are always three realities or subjects: one who loves, one who is loved, and the love that unites them.

The God of Christian revelation is one and triune because he is communion of love. Theology has made use of the term "nature" or "substance" to indicate unity in God, and of the term "person" to indicate the distinction. Because of this we say that our God is one God in three persons. The Christian doctrine of the Trinity is not a regression, a compromise between monotheism and polytheism. It is a step further that only God himself could make the human mind take.

Let us now turn to some practical considerations. The Trinity is the model of every human community, from the most simple and elemental, which is the family, to the universal Church. It shows how love creates unity out of diversity: unity of intentions, of thought, of will; diversity of subjects, of characteristics and, in the human realm, of sex. And we see, specifically, what a family can learn from the Trinitarian model.

If we read the New Testament with care, we observe a sort of rule. Each one of the three divine persons does not speak about himself, but about the other; does not attract attention to himself, but to the other. Every time the Father speaks in the Gospel he does so always to reveal something of the Son. Jesus, in turn, speaks only of the Father. When the Holy Spirit reaches a believer's heart, he does not teach him to say his name, which in Hebrew is "Ruah," but teaches him to say "Abba," which is the Father's name.

Let's try to think what this style would bring about if it were transferred to family life. The father, who is not so concerned about asserting his authority as that of the mother; the mother, who before teaching the child to say "Mommy," teaches him to say "Daddy." If this style was imitated in our families and communities, they would truly become a reflection of the Trinity on earth, places where love is the rule that governs everything.

[Italian original published by "Famiglia Cristiana"]

[Translation by ZENIT]

www.catholic.org

In addition:

(I believe this came from http://www.catholic.com/library/Trinity.asp)

The doctrine of the Trinity is encapsulated in Matthew 28:19, where Jesus instructs the apostles: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."
but, it is not that easy........ the Catechism teaches:
237 The Trinity is a mystery of faith in the strict sense, one of the "mysteries that are hidden in God, which can never be known unless they are revealed by God". To be sure, God has left traces of his Trinitarian being in his work of creation and in his Revelation throughout the Old Testament. But his inmost Being as Holy Trinity is a mystery that is inaccessible to reason alone or even to Israel's faith before the Incarnation of God's Son and the sending of the Holy Spirit.

It seems that some here need an education about the early Christian church.....
"After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. . . . If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" (Didache 7:1 [A.D. 70]).
Justin Martyr
"We will prove that we worship him reasonably; for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things; but they are ignorant of the mystery which lies therein" (First Apology 13:5–6 [A.D. 151]).
Theophilus of Antioch
"It is the attribute of God, of the most high and almighty and of the living God, not only to be everywhere, but also to see and hear all; for he can in no way be contained in a place. . . . The three days before the luminaries were created are types of the Trinity: God, his Word, and his Wisdom" (To Autolycus 2:15 [A.D. 181]).
There are several more early Christian (Catholic) writers to add to this LONG before the 3rd century. Commentary about the Council of Nicea is often misleading. Everyone needs to understand that just because something is defined at a council does not mean that it was not COMMON knowledge to Christians at the time. Most councils were held when a heretical group forced the Church to infallibly define something as doctrine........ and in this case:
The early Christians were quick to spot new heresies. In the third century, Sabellius, a Libyan priest who was staying at Rome, invented a new one. He claimed there is only one person in the Godhead, so that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all one person with different "offices," rather than three persons who are one being in the Godhead, as the orthodox position holds.
Of course, people immediately recognized that Sabellius’s teaching contradicted the historic faith of the Church, and he was quickly excommunicated. His heresy became known as Sabellianism, Modalism, and Patripassianism. It was called Sabellianism after its founder, Modalism after the three modes or offices which it claimed the one person of the Trinity occupied, and Patripassianism after its implication that the person of the Father (Patri-) suffered (-passion) on the cross when Jesus died.
Because Modalism asserts that there is only one person in the Godhead, it makes nonsense of passages which show Jesus talking to his Father (e.g., John 17), or declaring he is going to be with the Father (John 14:12, 28, 16:10) One office of a person cannot go to be with another office of that person, or say that the two of them will send the Holy Spirit while they remain in heaven (John 14:16-17, 26, 15:26, 16:13–15; Acts 2:32–33).
Modalism quickly died out; it was too contrary to the ancient Christian faith to survive for long. Unfortunately, it was reintroduced in the early twentieth century in the new Pentecostal movement. In its new form, Modalism is often referred to as Jesus Only theology since it claims that Jesus is the only person in the Godhead and that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are merely names, modes, or offices of Jesus. Today the United Pentecostal Church, as well as numerous smaller groups which call themselves "apostolic churches," teach the Jesus Only doctrine.

Excellent post my friend! I'm going to have to take some more time and read it very thoroughly to make sure I didn't miss anything

[Victor]

Michel, excellent post.

[jorylore]

Wow! Thanks for being so open minded.

In view of the scriptures you quoted, it sounds like you are familiar with what the Bible says about God and Jesus. I can offer clarification on certain Bible passages that Trinitarians use to support their belief. But before I do, I would like to appeal to your sense of reason.

Think about it. If the Trinity were true, it should be clearly and consistently presented in the Bible. Why? Because, the Bible is God's revelation of himself to mankind. And since we need to know God to worship him acceptably, the Bible should be clear in telling us just who he is. It should not be a mystery.

Also, consider that the Scriptures are "inspired of God" and are to used for "setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work." (2Tim. 3:16,17) Since the Bible is complete in doctrinal matters, if the Trinity doctrine is true, it should be there.
Then, why is the word "Trinity" not mentioned anywhere in the Bible?
Why can no scriptures be found that say that God is made up of three distinct persons, Father, Son, and holy spirit, and that the three are only one God? (Mat. 28:19, 20 simply mention the three in the same passage, it does not say that they are one)
Why can't any scripture that says that the Father, Son and holy spirit are equal in all ways, such as in eternity, power, position and wisdom?
Not even a single scripture says that the Son is equal to the Father in those ways-and if there were such a scripture, it would establish not a Trinity but at most a "duality."
Nowhere does the Bible equate the holy spirit with the Father.

Okay. But is the Trinity doctrine "implied" in the Scriptures, though not clearly stated?
Ask yourself: Why would the Bible only "imply" its most important teaching-who God is?
The Bible is clear on other teachings; why not on this, the most important one?
The reason is simple: It is not a Bible teaching.

A good point was made that I do agree with... God is love. Yet, how unloving on God's part if he were to conceal his true identity from us... to leave us wondering who he is and how he wants to be worshiped... to leave our understanding of him in the hands of scholars and theologians who give us complicated explanations to try to decipher, only to still be left confused. And when we still don't get it, they explain it all away but saying it's a mystery. I can't believe a God of love would do that. He would want us to know who he is. And he would surely have made it clear so that Jesus and his disciples could have taught it to others. He would not have left it to imperfect men to struggle with centuries later.

I hope this makes sense and isn't too long.

There is something I wanted to say about John 1:1 also. But I'll save that until tomorrow.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by The_Evelyonian

The thing that really confuses me on the Trinity is that there seem to be a number of verses in the Bible that say there is a Trinity and a number of verses that say there is not.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. (This verse implies they are one)

Can't the Word be "God" without being God the Father? Why can't two separate individuals share a title? Besides, if the Word was with God, doesn't that imply a relationship? Can someone be with oneself? Not really.

1 Timothy 2:5: For there is one God and one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus. (This verse implies two seperate individuals)

This verse and literally dozens upon dozens of other verses imply the existence of two separate individuals. Furthermore, they can even be "one," as long as we recognize that they don't have to be physically "one." They can be perfectly united in will and purpose. They can exist in absolute harmony with one another without being part of a single substance.

If you don't understand the Trinity, it's fine. You're in good company. I don't think for one minute that Christ's Apostles would have understood it either -- had they ever heard it preached.