Help with the Trinity (Jesus Christ, priest, Creator, Earth, gospel)

[jtartar]

Originally Posted by The_Evelyonian

Could someone help me with the doctrine of the Trinity. I just find it confusing and I feel like I'm missing something.

Thanks

The_Evelyonian

The_Evelyonian,
The doctrine of the Trinity is something you must decide for yourself. I will present a few dcriptures for your consideration.
These are scriptures used to prove the trinity: John 10:30, which says; I and the Father are one. Reason on this scripture. Does what is said mean they are the same person or does it mean they are one in goals, judgement, teachings. Consider this same idea at John 17:11, 21,22,23. Here the Bible says that all people who put faith in God are one.Do all people that put faith all of a sudden become a body with millions of heads???
On many U S coins there is a motto; E Pluribus Unum, which means; Out of many, one. When a person becomes a US citizen does he all of a sudden have one body with many heads??
The Bible tells us that when a man and a woman marry, the become ONE, Gen 2:24, Matt 19:4-6. Do a man and a woman, at marriage, become one body with two heads??? Or do they become one at to working together, for the goal of producing a happy marriage??
Could this be what Jesus meant when he said that I and the Father are one???
Another scripture that is used to prove the trinity is John 14:9, where Jesus said; He that has seen me has seen the Father. Jesus was also a spirit as God was. The Bible speaks of Jesus as being the IMAGE of God, 2Cor 4:4, Col 1:15. Now think, is an image the actual thing or something that looks like the original???
Notice Heb 1:3, where we are told that Jesus is the reflection of God's glory, the exact representation of His very being. Is a reflection the same as the thing being reflected, or is an exact representation of something the same as the original?? The fact is an exact representation is a FAX, which machines reproduce as an exact representation, a facsimile, or exact copy.

The Trinity is explained as God and Jesus being of the same essence, being the same age, knowing the same things,both being almighty, as a part.
What scriptures seem to discount this idea???
John 14:28, which Jesus says; the Father is greater than I am.
Matt 24:36, which Jesus says that he does not know all that God knows.
Matt 20"23, which shows that Jesus does not control everything that God has.
Both Dan 7:13,15, and Rev 5:6-8, picture God, on His throne and Jesus coming in before Him. How could that be if they were the same person.
At Ps 110:1 God is pictured as speaking to Jesus, telling him to sit at His right hand, until his enemies are placed as a stoll for his feet. Can you be the same person and still sit on the right of yourself.
Just before Stephen was stoned to death he was favored with a Beatific Vision, a vision of God, in heaven with Jesus at His right hand.
The Bible says that Jesus was God's SERVANT, Acts 3:13, Acts 4:26-30.
The Bible says that God exalted Jesus to a superior position after his resurrection, Acts 2:32,33. 5:30-32, Phil 2:9-11.
Right after Jesus was baptized he was carried into the wilderness to be tempted by the Devil, Matt 4:1-10. Since God owns everything, can God ever be tempted with anything???
The scriptures tells us that Jesus was made a little lower than the angels and that Jesus learned obedience and was made perfect through suffering, Heb 2:9,10, Heb 5:7-9. Could the
Almighty God learn obedience, and to whom, and could God Himself be made perfect through suffering?? The Almighty God is absolutely perfect in every way.
Three times when Jesus was on earth, God spoke to him from heaven, 3:17, Mark 9:7, John 12:28. If Jesus was on earth, how could he also be in heaven?? Matt 7:21, Matt 16:17.
The Bible also tells us that no one has ever seen God at any time, John 1:18, 6:46,1John 4:12. We have seen Jesus, but the Bible says that no one has seen GOD at any time. Could they be the same person??
I could point out several more, but this should give you enough information for you to reason out the truth.

[Yeshua_Lives]

Originally Posted by The_Evelyonian

Could someone help me with the doctrine of the Trinity. I just find it confusing and I feel like I'm missing something.

Thanks

The_Evelyonian

Good question.

[Starfish]

Originally Posted by jtartar

The_Evelyonian,
The doctrine of the Trinity is something you must decide for yourself. I will present a few dcriptures for your consideration.
These are scriptures used to prove the trinity: John 10:30, which says; I and the Father are one. Reason on this scripture. Does what is said mean they are the same person or does it mean they are one in goals, judgement, teachings. Consider this same idea at John 17:11, 21,22,23. Here the Bible says that all people who put faith in God are one.Do all people that put faith all of a sudden become a body with millions of heads???
On many U S coins there is a motto; E Pluribus Unum, which means; Out of many, one. When a person becomes a US citizen does he all of a sudden have one body with many heads??
The Bible tells us that when a man and a woman marry, the become ONE, Gen 2:24, Matt 19:4-6. Do a man and a woman, at marriage, become one body with two heads??? Or do they become one at to working together, for the goal of producing a happy marriage??
Could this be what Jesus meant when he said that I and the Father are one???
Another scripture that is used to prove the trinity is John 14:9, where Jesus said; He that has seen me has seen the Father. Jesus was also a spirit as God was. The Bible speaks of Jesus as being the IMAGE of God, 2Cor 4:4, Col 1:15. Now think, is an image the actual thing or something that looks like the original???
Notice Heb 1:3, where we are told that Jesus is the reflection of God's glory, the exact representation of His very being. Is a reflection the same as the thing being reflected, or is an exact representation of something the same as the original?? The fact is an exact representation is a FAX, which machines reproduce as an exact representation, a facsimile, or exact copy.

The Trinity is explained as God and Jesus being of the same essence, being the same age, knowing the same things,both being almighty, as a part.
What scriptures seem to discount this idea???
John 14:28, which Jesus says; the Father is greater than I am.
Matt 24:36, which Jesus says that he does not know all that God knows.
Matt 20"23, which shows that Jesus does not control everything that God has.
Both Dan 7:13,15, and Rev 5:6-8, picture God, on His throne and Jesus coming in before Him. How could that be if they were the same person.
At Ps 110:1 God is pictured as speaking to Jesus, telling him to sit at His right hand, until his enemies are placed as a stoll for his feet. Can you be the same person and still sit on the right of yourself.
Just before Stephen was stoned to death he was favored with a Beatific Vision, a vision of God, in heaven with Jesus at His right hand.
The Bible says that Jesus was God's SERVANT, Acts 3:13, Acts 4:26-30.
The Bible says that God exalted Jesus to a superior position after his resurrection, Acts 2:32,33. 5:30-32, Phil 2:9-11.
Right after Jesus was baptized he was carried into the wilderness to be tempted by the Devil, Matt 4:1-10. Since God owns everything, can God ever be tempted with anything???
The scriptures tells us that Jesus was made a little lower than the angels and that Jesus learned obedience and was made perfect through suffering, Heb 2:9,10, Heb 5:7-9. Could the
Almighty God learn obedience, and to whom, and could God Himself be made perfect through suffering?? The Almighty God is absolutely perfect in every way.
Three times when Jesus was on earth, God spoke to him from heaven, 3:17, Mark 9:7, John 12:28. If Jesus was on earth, how could he also be in heaven?? Matt 7:21, Matt 16:17.
The Bible also tells us that no one has ever seen God at any time, John 1:18, 6:46,1John 4:12. We have seen Jesus, but the Bible says that no one has seen GOD at any time. Could they be the same person??
I could point out several more, but this should give you enough information for you to reason out the truth.

Right on!

[Ringer]

Originally Posted by jtartar

The_Evelyonian,
The doctrine of the Trinity is something you must decide for yourself. I will present a few dcriptures for your consideration.
These are scriptures used to prove the trinity: John 10:30, which says; I and the Father are one. Reason on this scripture. Does what is said mean they are the same person or does it mean they are one in goals, judgement, teachings. Consider this same idea at John 17:11, 21,22,23. Here the Bible says that all people who put faith in God are one.Do all people that put faith all of a sudden become a body with millions of heads???
On many U S coins there is a motto; E Pluribus Unum, which means; Out of many, one. When a person becomes a US citizen does he all of a sudden have one body with many heads??
The Bible tells us that when a man and a woman marry, the become ONE, Gen 2:24, Matt 19:4-6. Do a man and a woman, at marriage, become one body with two heads??? Or do they become one at to working together, for the goal of producing a happy marriage??
Could this be what Jesus meant when he said that I and the Father are one???
Another scripture that is used to prove the trinity is John 14:9, where Jesus said; He that has seen me has seen the Father. Jesus was also a spirit as God was. The Bible speaks of Jesus as being the IMAGE of God, 2Cor 4:4, Col 1:15. Now think, is an image the actual thing or something that looks like the original???
Notice Heb 1:3, where we are told that Jesus is the reflection of God's glory, the exact representation of His very being. Is a reflection the same as the thing being reflected, or is an exact representation of something the same as the original?? The fact is an exact representation is a FAX, which machines reproduce as an exact representation, a facsimile, or exact copy.

The Trinity is explained as God and Jesus being of the same essence, being the same age, knowing the same things,both being almighty, as a part.
What scriptures seem to discount this idea???
John 14:28, which Jesus says; the Father is greater than I am.
Matt 24:36, which Jesus says that he does not know all that God knows.
Matt 20"23, which shows that Jesus does not control everything that God has.
Both Dan 7:13,15, and Rev 5:6-8, picture God, on His throne and Jesus coming in before Him. How could that be if they were the same person.
At Ps 110:1 God is pictured as speaking to Jesus, telling him to sit at His right hand, until his enemies are placed as a stoll for his feet. Can you be the same person and still sit on the right of yourself.
Just before Stephen was stoned to death he was favored with a Beatific Vision, a vision of God, in heaven with Jesus at His right hand.
The Bible says that Jesus was God's SERVANT, Acts 3:13, Acts 4:26-30.
The Bible says that God exalted Jesus to a superior position after his resurrection, Acts 2:32,33. 5:30-32, Phil 2:9-11.
Right after Jesus was baptized he was carried into the wilderness to be tempted by the Devil, Matt 4:1-10. Since God owns everything, can God ever be tempted with anything???
The scriptures tells us that Jesus was made a little lower than the angels and that Jesus learned obedience and was made perfect through suffering, Heb 2:9,10, Heb 5:7-9. Could the
Almighty God learn obedience, and to whom, and could God Himself be made perfect through suffering?? The Almighty God is absolutely perfect in every way.
Three times when Jesus was on earth, God spoke to him from heaven, 3:17, Mark 9:7, John 12:28. If Jesus was on earth, how could he also be in heaven?? Matt 7:21, Matt 16:17.
The Bible also tells us that no one has ever seen God at any time, John 1:18, 6:46,1John 4:12. We have seen Jesus, but the Bible says that no one has seen GOD at any time. Could they be the same person??
I could point out several more, but this should give you enough information for you to reason out the truth.

I don't think you're grasping that Jesus and his humanity does not mean that he was fully God at the same time. There are many verses that point to Jesus' divinity that you simply can't ignore. In the same way, the Holy Spirit is given many personal qualities as well as the same God like characteristics. They are in perfect communion with each other and were all present before, during, and after creation.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Ringer

I don't think you're grasping that Jesus and his humanity does not mean that he was fully God at the same time. There are many verses that point to Jesus' divinity that you simply can't ignore. In the same way, the Holy Spirit is given many personal qualities as well as the same God like characteristics. They are in perfect communion with each other and were all present before, during, and after creation.

I don't think you're grasping that none of the verses jtartar posted say that Jesus was not divine. It's entirely possible to believe He was divine without believing He was the same individual as His Father.

[sojourner]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

I don't think you're grasping that none of the verses jtartar posted say that Jesus was not divine. It's entirely possible to believe He was divine without believing He was the same individual as His Father.

He's not "the same individual as his Father." He's a completely separate individual. That's why trinity doctrine states that there are three distinct persons but one God.

[The_Evelyonian]

Thanks everyone for your replies

Though I'm still not 100% clear on the subject I am closer than I was. The main part I still have trouble with is seeing Father, Son, and Spirit as three distinct Persons yet all one God. It just seems like a contradiction to me, like saying they are one Individual but not one Individual. I don't know though. Maybe I'm still not looking at it the right way.

The easiet way I've found to understand it thus far is the way jtartar and Starfish posted it. Three Persons united in one purpose. Three-in-One.

[Te Deum]

These links may help:

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Blessed Trinity
The Trinity
Trinity Sunday
The Most Holy Trinity

God bless

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by sojourner

He's not "the same individual as his Father." He's a completely separate individual. That's why trinity doctrine states that there are three distinct persons but one God.

Thanks, sojourner. When you explain it that way, it doesn't sound all that different from my own beliefs. It's just that that's not the way I've heard it explained before -- by trinitarians.

Within that context, would you mind addressing the following line from the Athanasian Creed:

Neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance.

I guess what I'm looking for is an explanation of what it means not to confound the persons or divide the substance.