Help with the Trinity (Jesus Christ, priest, Creator, Earth, gospel)

[jorylore]

Katzpur said it for me.

Thanks.

[john63]

This is a very dangerous topic. Eventually Iris89 is going to show up and then we'll be in for it.

[searcher63]

Originally Posted by The_Evelyonian

The thing that really confuses me on the Trinity is that there seem to be a number of verses in the Bible that say there is a Trinity and a number of verses that say there is not.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. (This verse implies they are one)

1 Timothy 2:5: For there is one God and one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus. (This verse implies two seperate individuals)

I can see why you are confused....John 1:1 (when viewed at through the lens of the oldest Greek Writings should actually read:".........and the word was A god" ( Small g not capial G)
Why an emphasis on the small "g". Simply because a god can be just a powerful person not ALLMIGHTY GOD. The bible even call SATAN the "god" of this system of things!
So with that in mind you can see why Jesus could rightly be called: " A god".

[James the Persian]

Originally Posted by searcher63

I can see why you are confused....John 1:1 (when viewed at through the lens of the oldest Greek Writings should actually read:".........and the word was A god" ( Small g not capial G)
Why an emphasis on the small "g". Simply because a god can be just a powerful person not ALLMIGHTY GOD. The bible even call SATAN the "god" of this system of things!
So with that in mind you can see why Jesus could rightly be called: " A god".

No, the Greek does not say 'a god' at all (there is no article of any kind), and nor were there any initial capitals in any early manuscripts so to make a distinction between God and god can only be done using later translations. The Greek actually reads as much closer to 'the Word was with God and God was the Word', which supports the Trinity and not the opposite view.

James

[Mike182]

Originally Posted by The_Evelyonian

The thing that really confuses me on the Trinity is that there seem to be a number of verses in the Bible that say there is a Trinity and a number of verses that say there is not.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. (This verse implies they are one)

1 Timothy 2:5: For there is one God and one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus. (This verse implies two seperate individuals)

in my oppinion, there are a lot of similarities between God and Jesus fo rthem to be one of the same, yet there are sufficient differences for them to be seen independant of eachother

[michel]

Originally Posted by Victor

Michel, excellent post.

I was only quoting what people have posted in the past! - whenever I see a good post on a difficult subject, I copy it onto my hard drive, for a later airing.

[searcher63]

Originally Posted by JamesThePersian

No, the Greek does not say 'a god' at all (there is no article of any kind), and nor were there any initial capitals in any early manuscripts so to make a distinction between God and god can only be done using later translations. The Greek actually reads as much closer to 'the Word was with God and God was the Word', which supports the Trinity and not the opposite view.

James

How does "The Word was WITH GOD" support the Trinity any more than saying:" My wife was with me (at the store or whatever?)

[searcher63]

Originally Posted by jorylore

Wow! Thanks for being so open minded.

In view of the scriptures you quoted, it sounds like you are familiar with what the Bible says about God and Jesus. I can offer clarification on certain Bible passages that Trinitarians use to support their belief. But before I do, I would like to appeal to your sense of reason.

Think about it. If the Trinity were true, it should be clearly and consistently presented in the Bible. Why? Because, the Bible is God's revelation of himself to mankind. And since we need to know God to worship him acceptably, the Bible should be clear in telling us just who he is. It should not be a mystery.

Also, consider that the Scriptures are "inspired of God" and are to used for "setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work." (2Tim. 3:16,17) Since the Bible is complete in doctrinal matters, if the Trinity doctrine is true, it should be there.
Then, why is the word "Trinity" not mentioned anywhere in the Bible?
Why can no scriptures be found that say that God is made up of three distinct persons, Father, Son, and holy spirit, and that the three are only one God? (Mat. 28:19, 20 simply mention the three in the same passage, it does not say that they are one)
Why can't any scripture that says that the Father, Son and holy spirit are equal in all ways, such as in eternity, power, position and wisdom?
Not even a single scripture says that the Son is equal to the Father in those ways-and if there were such a scripture, it would establish not a Trinity but at most a "duality."
Nowhere does the Bible equate the holy spirit with the Father.

Okay. But is the Trinity doctrine "implied" in the Scriptures, though not clearly stated?
Ask yourself: Why would the Bible only "imply" its most important teaching-who God is?
The Bible is clear on other teachings; why not on this, the most important one?
The reason is simple: It is not a Bible teaching.

A good point was made that I do agree with... God is love. Yet, how unloving on God's part if he were to conceal his true identity from us... to leave us wondering who he is and how he wants to be worshiped... to leave our understanding of him in the hands of scholars and theologians who give us complicated explanations to try to decipher, only to still be left confused. And when we still don't get it, they explain it all away but saying it's a mystery. I can't believe a God of love would do that. He would want us to know who he is. And he would surely have made it clear so that Jesus and his disciples could have taught it to others. He would not have left it to imperfect men to struggle with centuries later.

I hope this makes sense and isn't too long.

There is something I wanted to say about John 1:1 also. But I'll save that until tomorrow.

AWESOME POINTS!!!!
Your post reminds me of the bibles admonition "TO REASON ON THE SCRIPTURES!" God would not ask us to reason on something that is Devoid of reason or rational explaination.

[James the Persian]

Originally Posted by searcher63

How does "The Word was WITH GOD" support the Trinity any more than saying:" My wife was with me (at the store or whatever?)

It doesn't, but that's only a fragment of the text and misses my point entirely. My point was that the text does not read (by any stretch of the imagination) as 'The Word was a god' in the original Greek. The opening of John's Gospel is one of many passages that I would say supported the Trinity, certainly in the original, but the only thing I was trying to point out was that the incredibly poor translation found in the New World Translation cannot be supported if you understand anything of the Koine it purports to translate. The traditional English translation is far more accurate.

James

[The_Evelyonian]

Thank you all for your posts!

Originally Posted by jorylore

Okay. But is the Trinity doctrine "implied" in the Scriptures, though not clearly stated?
Ask yourself: Why would the Bible only "imply" its most important teaching-who God is?
The Bible is clear on other teachings; why not on this, the most important one?
The reason is simple: It is not a Bible teaching.

That's always been my reasoning.

Originally Posted by JamesThePersian

No, the Greek does not say 'a god' at all (there is no article of any kind), and nor were there any initial capitals in any early manuscripts so to make a distinction between God and god can only be done using later translations. The Greek actually reads as much closer to 'the Word was with God and God was the Word', which supports the Trinity and not the opposite view.

James

The interlinear Diaglott is as close as I've ever been able to get to the "original greek" and it says: "In a beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and a god was the Word." This seems to say that The Word (Jesus) was divine but not "the God".

One question I still have: In John 8:58 Jesus says, "Before Abraham ever was, I AM". Was Jesus claiming to be God? The people He was talking to seemed to think so. They tried to stone Him right after He said this.

Peace