If there's a god - why isn't it obvious?

[challupa]

Originally Posted by Dunemeister

Well, judge is only one metaphor among many others, including father, mother hen, architect, provider, redeemer, lover, and a host of others. It's when we distort these metaphors by focusing on one to the exclusion of the others that we run into trouble. It's also a distortion to completely reject the notion that God is going to hold us accountable for how we treat each other and respect or disrespect God himself. The precise form of that judgment (in particular hell) is open to debate, but surely any God worth revering will be concerned with justice, which among other things means compensating victims, rewarding the righteous and punishing evildoers. Take that away, and you don't have much of a god at all.

Well I think I would still revere one that was merciful vs one that sent you to hell for eternity. I don't care, there is nothing anyone can do that deserves eternal suffering. I'm sorry, that isn't justice and holds no practical value imo. That's why I really think that any religion that thinks god is that kind of being, is misunderstanding big time.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by challupa

Well I think I would still revere one that was merciful vs one that sent you to hell for eternity. I don't care, there is nothing anyone can do that deserves eternal suffering. I'm sorry, that isn't justice and holds no practical value imo. That's why I really think that any religion that thinks god is that kind of being, is misunderstanding big time.

38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[m] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[Dunemeister]

Originally Posted by challupa

Well I think I would still revere one that was merciful vs one that sent you to hell for eternity. I don't care, there is nothing anyone can do that deserves eternal suffering. I'm sorry, that isn't justice and holds no practical value imo. That's why I really think that any religion that thinks god is that kind of being, is misunderstanding big time.

Fair enough; we may have to just agree to disagree. I'm glad, though, that we agree on the fact that God is concerned about justice. We also agree (although we disagree about the legitimacy of hell) that God is primarily merciful.

[Dunemeister]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[m] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Who are "us"?

[Dunemeister]

Originally Posted by challupa

What kinds of things could they say that you wouldn't believe?

Well, there's plenty of what people who say they've talked with God say that I wouldn't agree with. What I'm saying is that I wouldn't rule out that these people are actually dealing with God on some deep level. There are many reasons for misunderstanding what God says, just as there are problems when humans communicate using typical language forms (even in the same language and without ill will). The point is that I can disagree with your theology -- what you say about God -- while admitting that you are dealing with the same God I am (although it may be that you're dealing with another god -- that question would take some discernment).

[Dunemeister]

Originally Posted by Autodidact

O.K. However, it is the simplest explanation that accounts for all the data without contradiction. Just sayin'.

Yes well, if your standard is as low as mere lack of contradiction, I suppose you've got a point.

[URAVIP2ME]

Originally Posted by challupa

How do you know for sure god has laws? Remember, I don't believe the bible so that doesn't count for me.

Conscience. All humans have a conscience.
Where does conscience come from?

In writing about the conscience Paul wrote that whenever the people of the nations that do not have law do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves.

Then Paul went on to write that the people of the nations are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them and, between their own thoughts they are being 'accused' or even 'excused'.

Once a conscience becomes hardened or calloused it becomes just like skin that has been seared with a hot branding iron. It looses feeling and can 'excuse' wrongdoing. That is why Jimminy Cricket advice to just let your 'conscience be your guide' is not always a reliable guide.


Reference verses: Romans 2:14,15; 1st Timothy 4:2

[challupa]

Originally Posted by URAVIP2ME

Conscience. All humans have a conscience.
Where does conscience come from?

In writing about the conscience Paul wrote that whenever the people of the nations that do not have law do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves.

Then Paul went on to write that the people of the nations are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them and, between their own thoughts they are being 'accused' or even 'excused'.

Once a conscience becomes hardened or calloused it becomes just like skin that has been seared with a hot branding iron. It looses feeling and can 'excuse' wrongdoing. That is why Jimminy Cricket advice to just let your 'conscience be your guide' is not always a reliable guide.


Reference verses: Romans 2:14,15; 1st Timothy 4:2

Just because I have a conscious and care about how I treat others, does not mean that there is a god. That is a huge leap into nowhere imo.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Dunemeister

Who are "us"?

Anyone who seeks "the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Seek and ye shall find. :-)

[Dunemeister]

Originally Posted by challupa

Just because I have a conscious and care about how I treat others, does not mean that there is a god. That is a huge leap into nowhere imo.

It's not such a huge leap. Conscience apparently puts us in touch with nonphysical truths. Not only that, those truths concern what is appropriate human behavior. That is, they are standards or rules. By virtue of what can these rules be "true" or "legitimate"? At least part of the answer is (IMO) the existence of a Creator.