The period after death

[james2ko]

Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth

"My kingdom does not belong to this world.John 18:36

According to above, when Jesus came, His kingdom didn't appear while he was in this World, but when He left, then gradually His Kingdom appeared in the world. meaning that while He was here, He didn't have any significant believers, but when He left, the number of followers increased day by day. That's why His kingship was not of this world, but after He went to heaven.

If the kingdom were here, the entire earth would be under its rule (Zech 14:9). Christ, its King, would be sitting on David's throne (Isa 9:6-7), ruling from Jerusalem (Zec 8:3). All mankind (its subjects), including Gentile nations, would be living under Christ's rule and observing the Feast of Tabernacles (Zech 14:16-19). If the kingdom were already here, His laws would be known by every man, woman and child throughout the earth. Everyone would be moving toward repentance (Isa 30:21; Jer 31:34). This is certainly not the case today.

I agree with this. But this would be the case with regards to His second coming as well. That is, His reign, would not be in a physical sense. similar to the first time.

If you believe that then you are not honestly rightly dividing the word of truth. There are tons of verses and many parables describing Jesus literal return with His Saints.

[Sententia]

Originally Posted by james2ko

If the kingdom were here, the entire earth would be under its rule (Zech 14:9). Christ, its King, would be sitting on David's throne (Isa 9:6-7), ruling from Jerusalem (Zec 8:3). All mankind (its subjects), including Gentile nations, would be living under Christ's rule and observing the Feast of Tabernacles (Zech 14:16-19). If the kingdom were already here, His laws would be known by every man, woman and child throughout the earth. Everyone would be moving toward repentance (Isa 30:21; Jer 31:34). This is certainly not the case today.

If you believe that then you are not honestly rightly dividing the word of truth. There are tons of verses and many parables describing Jesus literal return with His Saints.

Whose kingdom do you set your tongue loose upon? Certainly you quote of another book as Cyric's power is immense, and he is considered one of the major evils. The destruction of Zhentil Keep is his doing, along with many unfortunate problems Faerûn has to deal with. Cyric became utterly mad when he read a tome he had created, the Cyrinishad, which made whomever read the book believe everything it says, thus making him or her a wholly devoted follower of Cyric, and came to believe that he was the greatest power in all of the universe, superseding even Ao, the overgod.

But clearly Cyric not only rivals Ao but is his clear better. Long live Cyric.

[St Giordano Bruno]

Originally Posted by james2ko

If the kingdom were here, the entire earth would be under its rule (Zech 14:9). Christ, its King, would be sitting on David's throne (Isa 9:6-7), ruling from Jerusalem (Zec 8:3). All mankind (its subjects), including Gentile nations, would be living under Christ's rule and observing the Feast of Tabernacles (Zech 14:16-19). If the kingdom were already here, His laws would be known by every man, woman and child throughout the earth. Everyone would be moving toward repentance (Isa 30:21; Jer 31:34). This is certainly not the case today.



If you believe that then you are not honestly rightly dividing the word of truth. There are tons of verses and many parables describing Jesus literal return with His Saints.

What evidence is there that made those authors of those sacred texts any more privileged than the contemporary philosophers of today?

[InvestigateTruth]

Originally Posted by james2ko

If the kingdom were here, the entire earth would be under its rule (Zech 14:9). Christ, its King, would be sitting on David's throne (Isa 9:6-7), ruling from Jerusalem (Zec 8:3). All mankind (its subjects), including Gentile nations, would be living under Christ's rule and observing the Feast of Tabernacles (Zech 14:16-19). If the kingdom were already here, His laws would be known by every man, woman and child throughout the earth. Everyone would be moving toward repentance (Isa 30:21; Jer 31:34). This is certainly not the case today.



If you believe that then you are not honestly rightly dividing the word of truth. There are tons of verses and many parables describing Jesus literal return with His Saints.

The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 17:21- Luke
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. 17:22- Luke

Clearly, the verse shows, the kingdom is not to be taken literal. If it was a literal kingdom and ruling, then it would come with observation.

Also, please note that, when Bible says "Within you" or "Within us", It means, internal belief. By "within" is meant within heart and mind, i.e. Belief.
So, when it says "behold, the kingdom of God is within you. 17:22- Luke" it is talknig about the belief that would exist within people's hearts and minds (that's why it's not observable)

other places where "within" is used in Bible: Luke: 12:18, 16:4, 24:33 Mat.: 3:10, 9:22 etc....


Also, according to Old testimony, Messiah was supposed to be a Prince and also Elijah was supposed to return. None of these happened literally:

Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD" -Malachi 4:1-5

And in new testimony, Jesus confirmed that Elijah was returned in the person of John the Baptist. But they didn't recognise him, since they interpreted Bible literally and expected return of the same exact person:

"In fact, he [Elijah] already has come, but he wasn't recognized, and was badly mistreated by many... Then the disciples realized he was speaking of John the Baptist."-Matthew 17:10-13


Therefore, clearly, what the Author of the Bible meant by ‘return’, ‘kingship’, ‘reign’ was not literal interpretation. It can only have a figurative meaning, otherwise, neither Elijah was returned, nor was Jesus a Prince.

[St Giordano Bruno]

Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth

The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 17:21- Luke
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. 17:22- Luke

Clearly, the verse shows, the kingdom is not to be taken literal. If it was a literal kingdom and ruling, then it would come with observation.

Also, please note that, when Bible says "Within you" or "Within us", It means, internal belief. By "within" is meant within heart and mind, i.e. Belief.
So, when it says "behold, the kingdom of God is within you. 17:22- Luke" it is talknig about the belief that would exist within people's hearts and minds (that's why it's not observable)

other places where "within" is used in Bible: Luke: 12:18, 16:4, 24:33 Mat.: 3:10, 9:22 etc....


Also, according to Old testimony, Messiah was supposed to be a Prince and also Elijah was supposed to return. None of these happened literally:

Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD" -Malachi 4:1-5

And in new testimony, Jesus confirmed that Elijah was returned in the person of John the Baptist. But they didn't recognise him, since they interpreted Bible literally and expected return of the same exact person:

"In fact, he [Elijah] already has come, but he wasn't recognized, and was badly mistreated by many... Then the disciples realized he was speaking of John the Baptist."-Matthew 17:10-13


Therefore, clearly, what the Author of the Bible meant by ‘return’, ‘kingship’, ‘reign’ was not literal interpretation. It can only have a figurative meaning, otherwise, neither Elijah was returned, nor was Jesus a Prince.

"The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:21"

I don't know but I find this extremely hard to swallow. All those saints and angels may give me indigestion. If anyone asks me where is God? I could reply "I ate Him."

[URAVIP2ME]

Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth

The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 17:21- Luke
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. 17:22- Luke
Clearly, the verse shows, the kingdom is not to be taken literal. If it was a literal kingdom and ruling, then it would come with observation.
Also, please note that, when Bible says "Within you" or "Within us", It means, internal belief. By "within" is meant within heart and mind, i.e. Belief.
So, when it says "behold, the kingdom of God is within you. 17:22- Luke" it is talknig about the belief that would exist within people's hearts and minds (that's why it's not observable)
other places where "within" is used in Bible: Luke: 12:18, 16:4, 24:33 Mat.: 3:10, 9:22 etc....
Also, according to Old testimony, Messiah was supposed to be a Prince and also Elijah was supposed to return. None of these happened literally:
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD" -Malachi 4:1-5
And in new testimony, Jesus confirmed that Elijah was returned in the person of John the Baptist. But they didn't recognise him, since they interpreted Bible literally and expected return of the same exact person:
"In fact, he [Elijah] already has come, but he wasn't recognized, and was badly mistreated by many... Then the disciples realized he was speaking of John the Baptist."-Matthew 17:10-13
Therefore, clearly, what the Author of the Bible meant by ‘return’, ‘kingship’, ‘reign’ was not literal interpretation. It can only have a figurative meaning, otherwise, neither Elijah was returned, nor was Jesus a Prince.

At Luke 17vs20,21 Jesus was not addressing the people but the religious leaders [Pharisees]. The kingdom was not within the Pharisees, but Jesus was within their presence or among them.
At Luke 17v22 is when Jesus addresses his disciples.

Luke 19vs12-15 shows God's kingdom as a literal kingdom with Jesus as the nobleman who returns with kingdom power.

Luke 12v18 says This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods. -It does not say 'within'

Luke 16v4 says I am resolved what to do, that, when I am pit out of the stewardship, they may receive me into their houses.-Does not say 'within'

Luke 24v33 says and they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them.
-again it does not say within.

Matt 3v10 says and now also the ax is laid unto the toot of the trees: therefore every tree which brings not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.- again no mention of 'within'.

Matt 9v22 says But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; your faith has made you whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.- again 'within' is not there.

Yes, according to Isaiah's prophecy [9v6] Jesus is Prince of Peace.
Just because it has not yet literally happened, does that mean Jesus peaceful millennial reign or thousand-year reign over earth will not happen?
Please notice Isaiah [9v7] that the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. This does not start until after the separation of the sheep and the goats of Matthew 25vs31,32.

Isn't the kingdom government a literal government according to Daniel 2v44?
What is given to Jesus at Daniel 7vs 13,14?
How can the holy ones the saints possess something not literal?
- Daniel 7v18,22

Jesus brings Peace on Earth toward men of goodwill by the words from Jesus mouth as described at Isaiah 11v4 and Revelation 19vs11,14,15.
Jesus removes the wicked.
- Psalm 92v7; 37vs11,29,38; Proverbs 2vs21,22.

[URAVIP2ME]

Originally Posted by St Giordano Bruno

"The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:21"
I don't know but I find this extremely hard to swallow. All those saints and angels may give me indigestion. If anyone asks me where is God? I could reply "I ate Him."

The Pharisees [Luke 17v20] demanded of Jesus when the kingdom of God should come?
By Jesus saying Not with observation or observable please notice that Jesus draws comparisons:
One at verse 27 about the days of 'Noah' the people did not observe the time because they were too busy with their own lives and were destroyed.
Jesus also draws on the comparison in verses 28,29 to the days of 'Lot',
they were Not observing but ate, drank, bought, sold, were planting and were building until they were destroyed. Remember: Lot's wife?
In both examples Jesus was showing us it is important to pay attention to God's will as more important than our own will or agenda.

Luke 17v21 is in connection to Matthew 24v5 where Jesus says many would come in his name [lo here, lo there] saying I am Christ and deceive many.

However, Luke 17v24, as lightning is seen over a wide area, the global events or features described at Luke 21 and Matthew 24 would be evident or visible to the mind's eye to all wanting to observe what Jesus taught us before the end times of all badness on earth comes.

[james2ko]

Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth

The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 17:21- Luke Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. 17:22- Luke Clearly, the verse shows, the kingdom is not to be taken literal. If it was a literal kingdom and ruling, then it would come with observation.

Also, please note that, when Bible says "Within you" or "Within us", It means, internal belief. By "within" is meant within heart and mind, i.e. Belief. So, when it says "behold, the kingdom of God is within you. 17:22- Luke" it is talknig about the belief that would exist within people's hearts and minds (that's why it's not observable)

Let's reason together. Many erroneously conclude this verse says the kingdom of God is not a literal kingdom but it is within each believer Remember (2 Pet 1:20). To whom was Christ speaking? The beginning of verse 20 gives us the answer; The Pharisees. They asked him, "When the kingdom of God would come.." Christ answered in verse 21, ".....the kingdom of God is within you." Was Christ saying the kingdom of God was within the Pharisees? Men he called "hypocrites, blind guides, extortioners, who were like whited (tombs), which appeared beautiful outward, but ..within [were] full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness" (Matt 23:21, 23-27)?

A more in depth study shows that "within you" is a mistranslation. The New King James margin says, "in your midst." The Contemporary English Version reads, "is here with you." The New International Version renders it "among" you. Christ was telling them His kingdom was in their presence- but how? Christ was referring to Himself! While in the flesh, Christ represented God's kingdom! Reading the rest of the chapter will help put this conclusion in context. In John 3:3, Christ told Nicodemus, a Pharisee, "...unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Is this telling us that once a person becomes saved, the kingdom of God is within them and there's no literal kingdom? The next two verses give us the answer. ..."..unless one is born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (vs. 4-5) To enter God's kingdom, we must be transformed to spirit because Paul tells us, in our current physical state, we cannot inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor15:50). That transformation will occur at the first resurrection when God's people will be "born again" as spirit beings to be a part of God's literal kingdom or government on this earth! (1 Cor 15:50-54; 1 Thes 4:16-17)

other places where "within" is used in Bible: Luke: 12:18, 16:4, 24:33 Mat.: 3:10, 9:22 etc....

BTW....These are all the wrong references. It's actually Luk 12:17; 16:3; Mat 3:9; 9:21. They all use a different Greek word than our example!!! Look it up in a concordance. I could not find the correct reference for Mat 24:33.

Also, according to Old testimony, Messiah was supposed to be a Prince and also Elijah was supposed to return. None of these happened literally:Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD" -Malachi 4:1-5

Read the whole chapter. It is talking about the future judgment period. Mal 4:1 states, "For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up," Says the LORD of hosts, "That will leave them neither root nor branch. " This has yet to happen! It's obviously referring to a future time where an Elijah like prophet will return!

And in new testimony, Jesus confirmed that Elijah was returned in the person of John the Baptist. But they didn't recognise him, since they interpreted Bible literally and expected return of the same exact person:"In fact, he [Elijah] already has come, but he wasn't recognized, and was badly mistreated by many... Then the disciples realized he was speaking of John the Baptist."-Matthew 17:10-13

Matthew 17:10-13 contains several key points. First, it speaks of two Elijahs—one who “is come already” (John the Baptist) and the second who “truly shall first come,” prior to Christ’s second Coming. Jesus could not possibly have been speaking of John the Baptist in both past and future tense. He clearly spoke of two separate men. Also, John did not come just before the Day of the Lord, but rather almost 2,000 years prior to it!

Second, the latter-day Elijah was foretold to “restore all things.” John restored nothing, to the Church or anyone or anything else. Over the course of an approximately one-year ministry (with about another six months in prison), he merely announced Christ’s first Coming and baptized many, probably in advance of a later conversion, as a means of “preparing a people for the Lord.”

Third, Jesus makes a tremendously important statement (about John) with a message for our time. Though there were clear differences, John was a type of the final Elijah. And, despite the fact that there was no greater human being who ever lived than John, Jesus proclaimed, “They knew him not.”

Therefore, clearly, what the Author of the Bible meant by ‘return’, ‘kingship’, ‘reign’ was not literal interpretation. It can only have a figurative meaning, otherwise, neither Elijah was returned, nor was Jesus a Prince.

This is one of the reasons the Christian faith is so divided. The Bible should be interpreted literally, unless it is proven otherwise. Jesus will literally return. The overwhelming evidence is undeniable and irrefutable for those that have eyes to see and ears to hear.

[InvestigateTruth]

Originally Posted by james2ko

The New International Version renders it "among" you. Christ was telling them His kingdom was in their presence- but how? Christ was referring to Himself!

Well, yes, Since Jesus was among them, it is correct to say, the King was among them, and also, the meaning of the verses in Bible is not limited to one meaning only. Several meanings and teachings can be learned from them.
But either way, the point is that, Jesus was not literally a ‘King’. He was not a worldly king and yet He said, “kingdom is within you”!

But, the Pharisees expected Him, to be a worldly king.
The only way to understand that He was a King, is to interpret the verse figuratively and spiritually.

I believe the same, with regards to His second coming.

Originally Posted by james2ko

Matthew 17:10-13 contains several key points. First, it speaks of two Elijahs—one who “is come already” (John the Baptist) and the second who “truly shall first come,” prior to Christ’s second Coming.

Yes, I agree. There are 2 returns of Elijah!
But again the point is, by ‘return’ is not meant the return of exact persons. But the appearance of the same qualities in another person, as the first return of Elijah which happened 2000 years ago, was not a literal return.

Now, you mentioned, a very good point:

"1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." -Peter

This means, that ultimately, we should submit to the interpretation that the Author has given by sending His Manifestation, and not to make our own private interpretations. We should accept whatever interpretation that the Author has, even if it is totally different from what we have imagined for 2000 years!

I actually had more of this discussion with regards to the second coming of Messiah and John the Baptist in another thread, which we could more discuss over there as I have already posted some:

Baha'i vs End Times Christianity

[james2ko]

Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth

Well, yes, Since Jesus was among them, it is correct to say, the King was among them, and also, the meaning of the verses in Bible is not limited to one meaning only. Several meanings and teachings can be learned from them.But either way, the point is that, Jesus was not literally a ‘King’. He was not a worldly king and yet He said, “kingdom is within you”! But, the Pharisees expected Him, to be a worldly king.The only way to understand that He was a King, is to interpret the verse figuratively and spiritually. I believe the same, with regards to His second coming.

That His second coming is figurative? Either you are privately interpreting, or just plain ignoring the many verses and examples that irrefutably show He is coming back as a literal King with His Saints to rule and govern this earth!

Mar 13:26; Luk 21:27; Mat 24:30; Mar 14:62; Rev 1:7; Mat 26:64; Heb 9:28; 1Thess 4:16; Zec 14:4, Amo 1:2; Psa 102:15-16; Psa 110:2; Psa 2:6-7; Isa 27:13; Isa 2:3; Isa 32:1; Joe 3:16-18; Zec 8:20; Mic 4:1-2; Jer 3:17; Zec 14:5; Jer 33:15-16; Psa 2;8; Psa 22:27-28; Psa 72:11; Psa 72:19; Psa 86:9; Rev 17:14;19:16; Dan 7:18,22,27; Psa 149:5-9; Zec 14:5; 1Thes 3:13; Jud 1:14-15; Psa 37:9,11,22,29; Psa 45:16; Obad 1:21; Zec 14:9; Isa 11:9; Hab 2:14; Mat 5:5; Mat 25:34; Mat 19:28; Luk 22:29-30; Luk 19:12-27; 2 Tim 2:1-2; Rev 2:26-27; Rev 3:21; Mic 4:2-3;6-7; 1 Co 6:2-3; Rev 11:15...and more!!

"1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." -Peter We should accept whatever interpretation that the Author has, even if it is totally different from what we have imagined for 2000 years!

Precisely, the authors were well aware that the Messiah would return to be a literal King. And this is reflective in their writings!! If you are sincere about seeking the truth, I urge you to first pray and ask God for understanding. Then read the verses above in a spirit of humility and without prejudice and it will become apparent that a literal 2nd coming is the only interpretation that makes any sense!