"Realize" (ritual, mysticism, coffin, spiritual, faith)

[doppelgänger]

I love reading passages where people use this word. It's usage tends to be so habituated, yet it carries so much information . . .

[Random]

Originally Posted by doppelgänger

I love reading passages where people use this word. It's usage tends to be so habituated, yet it carries so much information . . .

Yes, taking the stuff of thought and actualizing it in the real world. It's neat. Do you think real-ization comes before or after ideation? Some people will think something about something, realize something about it, and then say "I have an idea!", which would seem to indicate it comes before, know what I mean?

[doppelgänger]

Originally Posted by Random

Yes, taking the stuff of thought and actualizing it in the real world. It's neat. Do you think real-ization comes before or after ideation? Some people will think something about something, realize something about it, and then say "I have an idea!", which would seem to indicate it comes before, know what I mean?

Great question! I want to think about that a bit . . . By ideation you mean the forming of a thought about a thing?

Can I "realize" a thing without an ideation of it? Is that sort of what religious "faith" does?

Or must I have some ideation (however much a work in progress it may be) in order to realize it?

Or are they simultaneous, or synonyms.

[doppelgänger]

Here's a couple of passages from Constantin Brunner's Our Christ: Revolt of the Mystical Genius that might be helpful in this discussion, as he talks about the ideatum (though perhaps with a lack of self-reflection):

Directly within ourselves we seize upon the reality, indubitably real reality of absolute existence as the Cogitant, and thus are saved from all the discord, distress and disease of the ideatum. For the Cogitant within us does not and cannot fall sick with superstition; superstition is the malady of the ideatum, it is absolutized relativity.

Either they must imagine the Cogitant as another ideatum, another thing, as a thing behind their things (as that imaginary thing, the [child of unknown parentage] of thing and nothing) - or else they decide that it has no existence at all because they cannot think it, because it cannot be made comprehensible to them. But to make it comprehensible to them would mean, precisely, to make it incomprehensible, for it would mean removing it from life and moving into the sphere of the ideated thing-like, down to those who lie nailed in the coffin of such thingly thinking. It cannot be converted, it cannot be translated from the living into the dead in order that the dead may live by it.

[Random]

Originally Posted by doppelgänger

Great question! I want to think about that a bit . . . By ideation you mean the forming of a thought about a thing? Can I "realize" a thing without an ideation of it? Is that sort of what religious "faith" does?

Yes, the forming of a thought about a thing. You can realize a thing without an ideation of it, that's what Buddha talked about in the Nirvanaic state of mind; like seeing things as they really are without the desire to reformat them to suit some percieved meaning or symbolism. A rock is a rock, end of story. It is definitely what mysticism @ the core of religious faith does, yes.

Originally Posted by Dopp

Or must I have some ideation (however much a work in progress it may be) in order to realize it?

No ideation is necessary, this is what the mystic state of awareness is about, usually the result of meditation or spiritual transformation. What Buddhists call the awakened mind, or sometimes no-mind.

Originally Posted by Dopp

Or are they simultaneous, or synonyms.

Yes, that's how it happens, @ once. But we of course "sort" our thoughts out and then percieve them in a certain order. Hence, time, and the concepts of "forethought" and "afterthought". So sometimes realization comes before ideation, and sometimes ideation before realization. But the realization without ideation is the calm, awakened state, the natural state even you might say.

[doppelgänger]

Originally Posted by Random

Yes, that's how it happens, @ once. But we of course "sort" our thoughts out and then percieve them in a certain order. Hence, time, and the concepts of "forethought" and "afterthought". So sometimes realization comes before ideation, and sometimes ideation before realization. But the realization without ideation is the calm, awakened state, the natural state even you might say.

Yes. I think this is what Brunner is driving at as well with his "Cogitant" in the passages I quote above.

[Random]

Originally Posted by doppelgänger

Yes. I think this is what Brunner is driving at as well with his "Cogitant" in the passages I quote above.

Sure is.

[mball1297]

Originally Posted by Random

Yes, that's how it happens, @ once. But we of course "sort" our thoughts out and then percieve them in a certain order. Hence, time, and the concepts of "forethought" and "afterthought". So sometimes realization comes before ideation, and sometimes ideation before realization. But the realization without ideation is the calm, awakened state, the natural state even you might say.

Do you guys think there's a better way of doing it? Do you think there is another possible way for us to do it at all? Would it be possible to escape time and concepts of "forethought" and "afterthought"?