**Animals** (soul, evolution, heaven, philosophy)

[Super Universe]

Originally Posted by Seyorni

How did he come to the conclusion that animals have no souls, and what evidence did he cite for humans posessing them?

At what point in hominid evolution did we aquire souls, and by what mechanism?

Once a primitive humanoid made the first moral choice.

[CelticRavenwolf]

Originally Posted by Super Universe

Once a primitive humanoid made the first moral choice.

Why does the ability to make a moral choice mean a soul?

I think that that argument can only be accepted if you believe that there is a heaven for morally "right" choices, and a hell for morally "wrong" ones. That only leaves a sort of limbo or non-existence for those with the inability to choose, right?

If a soul just keeps coming back to Earth, the merits of morality don't necessarily mean as much as the experience.

[Super Universe]

Originally Posted by CelticRavenwolf

Why does the ability to make a moral choice mean a soul?

I think that that argument can only be accepted if you believe that there is a heaven for morally "right" choices, and a hell for morally "wrong" ones. That only leaves a sort of limbo or non-existence for those with the inability to choose, right?

If a soul just keeps coming back to Earth, the merits of morality don't necessarily mean as much as the experience.

Making a moral choice does not mean a soul is involved, that's not what I said. The first moral choice showed that primitive humans had finally evolved to the point where moral choice rather than pure selfish survival instinct began to play a part in the decision making process of human personality.

Heaven is not for "right" choices, it's for "right" learning which is that we can become a very important part of the universe. Hell is for those who want to BE the most important part of the universe.

Limbo for those with the inability to choose? Who would this be?

If a soul keeps coming back to the earth, the merit of morality doesn't mean as much as the experience? Both have merit, morality and experience. If you play a video game but fail to advance on the first attempt, do you quit and give up there? Or maybe you learn something from that first experience so the next time you have a better chance of advancing?

[CelticRavenwolf]

I never said that morality didn't have merit, only that it's isn't as integral as the overall experience of each life. Morality doesn't necessarily have a part to play in it - animals don't really have to worry about what's right or wrong. Their choices are based on what's best for them most of the time, and damn the rest of the world. Is that to say that they have not evolved enough to acquire souls? Or that they don't deserve them?

Nope, I still firmly believe that if humans have souls then animals too must have souls. Our brains may work a little differently than the rest of the animal kingdom, but brain function has nothing to do with the soul.

[Hema]

In my beliefs (Hinduism), they do have souls. All souls pass through the lower life forms and then when they reach the highest form which is the human form, they have a chance to realize God. We believe that all souls come from God and will return to God. Some people disagree that animals have souls but religious beliefs aside...my own personal belief is that many animals give us unconditional love and love is an expression of the soul.

[Rolling_Stone]

Originally Posted by Saint Tigeress

What does everyone think happens to our animal babies after death? Do they have a soul or spirit? Do you think they end up in the same place?

This was a short topic in my philosophy class... but my professor was an arrogant one. I don't remember where he got the basis for his stance... but he said they have no soul. i think it had something to do with Aristotles levels of being or levels of something...

Aristotle's levels of being is not unlike the perennial philosophy. (E.F. Schumacher's book A Guide for the Perplexed has a good description.) But let me ask this: do you think animals have the potential to embrace ideas pertaining to meaning, truth-values, purpose and aesthetics formulated from protoplasmic memory in process of association and recombination?

[Saint Tigeress]

Originally Posted by Rolling_Stone

aesthetics formulated from protoplasmic memory in process of association and recombination?

Let me look up those words real quick n I'll be right back with an answer! Should I already know those words!!!! Whoo whoo

[Saint Tigeress]

Well... I think I have a very vague jist of what you were saying. i knew I had heard aesthetics before....but how you went into protoplasm and gentitics and all that with it is way beyond me. So here is what I have concluded from what you said:

1. I now believe I do not have: "the potential to embrace ideas pertaining to meaning, truth-values, purpose and aesthetics formulated from protoplasmic memory in process of association and recombination" lol
2. If I do not have this and I still get a soul, my cat should get one by default on my part
3. Philosophers must always view the world meticulously from a grueling forced perspective of "most basic," right? (Thats what my instructor said anyway). But, what is more basic than the mind of an animal? How can we tell how a cat thinks? They cannot speak. Our kitties could be ingenuis and all-knowing underneath their little cute kitty fascade!


And thats my feeble attempt to reply to you. i am definately not up to par for battle as you can see. Maybe a more intellegent person will come along soon