Basis of all morality on selfishness? (beliefs, atheist, Satan, verse)

[rojse]

If the country with the allow rape laws existed, there would be selfish reasons to create a relationship not merely based on sex. You might create a relationship so that sex would be more enjoyable, because the partner was more responsive and reactive. Or you might want the associated intimate relationship, and not oly consider the sexual aspect of a relationship. You might do it because your social group does not consider that behaviour appropriate, even though it might be legal.

[Runt]

Originally Posted by rojse

If the country with the allow rape laws existed, there would be selfish reasons to create a relationship not merely based on sex. You might create a relationship so that sex would be more enjoyable, because the partner was more responsive and reactive. Or you might want the associated intimate relationship, and not oly consider the sexual aspect of a relationship. You might do it because your social group does not consider that behaviour appropriate, even though it might be legal.

Yes, but if the most selfish way to go about achieving a goal is to aggregate various goals into one conglomerate, then we might as well start aggregating all goals (sex, great-sex, intimate relationships, love, happiness, success, wealth, etc etc etc) into one. How do you go about living in such a way as to simultaneously take each and every selfish desire into consideration before acting on your desires? It's impossible; you'd spend your entire existence trying to think of the most disgustingly self-interested way to go about achieving any given action, and you'd never act.

[eudaimonia]

Originally Posted by Runt

You assume that an individual who wants sex also wants a relationship.

I assume no such thing. I don't care what he wants. I do not define self-interest in terms of whatever people happen to desire. That was my point.

if the "selfish rapist" is to incorporate every single "selfish aim" into one conglomerate goal, he is going to be spending his entire life planning how to take over the world so that he might "morally" have sex...

No, he would simply have sex in a way consistent with his overall life plan and system of values.


eudaimonia,

Mark

[Runt]

Originally Posted by eudaimonia

I assume no such thing. I don't care what he wants. I do not define self-interest in terms of whatever people happen to desire. That was my point.



No, he would simply have sex in a way consistent with his overall life plan and system of values.


eudaimonia,

Mark

You are ignoring or trying to manipulate the meaning of the words "selfish" and "self-interested" in order to try to win the argument.

YOU may not care what a self-interested individual wants or desires, but that doesn't mean that personal interests and wants/desires aren't central to the term.

Originally Posted by dictionary

Selfish: devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one's own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others

I.E. the self-interested (selfish) individual cares only for his own wants, desires and interests. This may indeed include long-term goals and a system of values, but it doesn't remove wants/desires from the picture.

Also, I'm a little skeptical of your argument that a moral system based on selfishness includes---and is actually guided/restricted by---a system of values other than self-interested motivation. This would seem to imply that it is the underlying system of values and not the selfish way of addressing them that is the source of morality...

[rojse]

The selfish person cares about what he or she must do to obtain their goals, and their goals only, and how to go about this.

[Runt]

Originally Posted by rojse

The selfish person cares about what he or she must do to obtain their goals, and their goals only, and how to go about this.

Yes, and if the selfish person's goal is to get sex---sex now, with minimal effort, not next month after a long courtship---how do you think he, whose values are based upon nothing more than selfishness, is going to go about getting the sex he wants? He has no cause to think that rape is wrong; in a system of morality governed by selfishness, the rights and wants of others do not matter except when they affect the wants and goals of oneself.

[eudaimonia]

Originally Posted by Runt

You are ignoring or trying to manipulate the meaning of the words "selfish" and "self-interested" in order to try to win the argument.

No, I am not. I'm revealing that it may have meanings and implications that are not the ones you are familiar with. Dictionaries are usually terrible for defining words for the purpose of philosophical discussions, but even the dictionary definition you presented used the word "welfare", which fits neatly into what I was saying about needs.


eudaimonia,

Mark

[rojse]

Originally Posted by Runt

Yes, and if the selfish person's goal is to get sex---sex now, with minimal effort, not next month after a long courtship---how do you think he, whose values are based upon nothing more than selfishness, is going to go about getting the sex he wants? He has no cause to think that rape is wrong; in a system of morality governed by selfishness, the rights and wants of others do not matter except when they affect the wants and goals of oneself.

The person's goal may just be the act of sex itself, so following the laws, no matter how ethically dubious, may be right for this person.

But there are other factors involved, not merely related to the single act that defines sex. Perhaps there is a social stigma attached to forced rape, despite the fact that it is legal, so although he has the goal of sex, he may also have goals of maintaining social networks, and so forth. Perhaps this hypothetical man does not want an unresponsive partner while having sex, so maintaining a relationship is more beneficial for this man because he gets more out of the sexual act from a partner. Perhaps there are other obligations that this man has, after committing this act - perhaps he has to feed and clothe the woman for a week, and pay her money if she falls pregnant. All of this reasoning is purely selfish, but requires more than a "do what I tell you, and I get what I want" so that this man truly does gets what he wants.

Although I disagree with the selfishness is the basis of morality philosophy, in this case, I can see that it can be applied in this situation.

[eudaimonia]

Instead of depending on dictionary definitions, it may be helpful to read this Wikipedia article:

Ethical Egoism

You'll note that it is exactly on subject:

"Ethical egoism is the normative ethical position that moral agents ought to do what is in their own self-interest."


eudaimonia,

Mark