Basis of all morality on selfishness? (beliefs, atheist, Satan, verse)

[Jaiket]

Originally Posted by isaax

There is a principle that I personally hold that selfishness is the greatest form of morality that exists. This may sound odd because of the common perception of selfishness. My view on selfishness is a little hard to vocalize so I will give a few examples. If I want money I could take it from someone, but this will likely result in legal action against me which would result in me having less money than I started with. So the most selfish way that I could get money would be to find the most socially acceptable easy way to make money that I could. If I want sexual gratification I could rape someone but I would then go to prison. The most selfish way to get it would be to develope a relationship with someone so that they would be willing to give it me all the time. I would like to hear some opinions on the concept, and if it is possible that this could be used from an atheistic perspective to explain common morallity

While I happen to agree that we should be our own primary concern, the thought of others taking a high place in our decisions and actions is higher morally than working out the easiest way to get what we want in society. It was socially acceptable for land owners to take everything but basic subsistence from peasants or serfs a few hundred years back for their own enrichment. That was probably the easiest and most profitable means of operating. Before I continue, is this the height of morality?

[Willamena]

But why do we *place* others "higher" and why is that more moral?

[Jaiket]

Originally Posted by Willamena

But why do we *place* others "higher" and why is that more moral?

As far as I know we don't and it isn't. That is, I know few people who subordinate themselves to others. The concept of self sacrifice is something I suspect to be encouraged by domineering institutions like churches, militaries, monarchies, and business.

[Runt]

Originally Posted by isaax

There is a principle that I personally hold that selfishness is the greatest form of morality that exists. This may sound odd because of the common perception of selfishness. My view on selfishness is a little hard to vocalize so I will give a few examples. If I want money I could take it from someone, but this will likely result in legal action against me which would result in me having less money than I started with. So the most selfish way that I could get money would be to find the most socially acceptable easy way to make money that I could. If I want sexual gratification I could rape someone but I would then go to prison. The most selfish way to get it would be to develope a relationship with someone so that they would be willing to give it me all the time. I would like to hear some opinions on the concept, and if it is possible that this could be used from an atheistic perspective to explain common morallity

This is one of the stupidest things I ever read, and I'll show you why.

Imagine that you live in a country where rape is legal. If you rape a woman, nothing bad will happen to you: you will not go to jail, her family will not hunt you down and punish you. Are you seriously going to suggest that in this case the most selfish route---raping the woman because it is the easiest way to get the sex you want---is a moral one?

[Willamena]

Originally Posted by Runt

This is one of the stupidest things I ever read, and I'll show you why.

Imagine that you live in a country where rape is legal. If you rape a woman, nothing bad will happen to you: you will not go to jail, her family will not hunt you down and punish you. Are you seriously going to suggest that in this case the most selfish route---raping the woman because it is the easiest way to get the sex you want---is a moral one?

In this case, "rape" would not be a good example. Another would have to be chosen to demonstrate the principle in the OP.

For instance, the principle in the OP would hardly work as a moral code for hugging bunnies.

[Runt]

Originally Posted by Willamena

In this case, "rape" would not be a good example. Another would have to be chosen to demonstrate the principle in the OP.

The OP used the example of rape himself.

Originally Posted by Isaax

If I want sexual gratification I could rape someone but I would then go to prison. The most selfish way to get it would be to develope a relationship with someone so that they would be willing to give it me all the time.

He argued that if one wanted sex, the "most moral" way to get sex is also the most selfish. The most selfish way would, according to him, "seem" to be rape; however, in most societies rape has legal consequences which most self-interested individuals would seek to avoid. Thus, the most selfish---and thus "moral" (according to the OP)---way an individual could achieve their goal of sex is to go about attaining it in a legal way. The selfish individual must then resort to concentual sex, and the less-selfish way of attaining sex---rape---is avoided.

This model works perfectly well so long as there are laws restraining selfish behavior. However, when there are not laws---when, for example, rape is not a crime---the most selfish action (rape) is permissable. According to the OP, the most selfish action is the most moral.... therefore in a society where rape is legal, rape is the most moral way to go about attaining sex.

[Willamena]

Originally Posted by Runt

The OP used the example of rape himself.

Because the OP assumes it's wrong. Change the premise, and the conclusion must also change.

Originally Posted by Runt

He argued that if one wanted sex, the "most moral" way to get sex is also the most selfish. The most selfish way would, according to him, "seem" to be rape; however, in most societies rape has legal consequences which most self-interested individuals would seek to avoid. Thus, the most selfish---and thus "moral" (according to the OP)---way an individual could achieve their goal of sex is to go about attaining it in a legal way. The selfish individual must then resort to concentual sex, and the less-selfish way of attaining sex---rape---is avoided.

I disagree. He argued that the most selfish means are moderated by the greater consideration for self imposed by society's laws, and I agree with that. Morality itself is an accumulation of society's values - mommy and daddy say it's wrong to do "this," the police say it's wrong to do "this," the government says it's wrong to "this," and most importantly, the guy on TV or the Internet says it's wrong to do "this."

Originally Posted by Runt

This model works perfectly well so long as there are laws restraining selfish behavior. However, when there are not laws---when, for example, rape is not a crime---the most selfish action (rape) is permissable. According to the OP, the most selfish action is the most moral.... therefore in a society where rape is legal, rape is the most moral way to go about attaining sex.

All you've done by changing the assumed laws, though, is to change the premise under which the OP model was presented. It obviously presented itself with certain assumptions in place.

[eudaimonia]

Originally Posted by Runt

Imagine that you live in a country where rape is legal. If you rape a woman, nothing bad will happen to you: you will not go to jail, her family will not hunt you down and punish you. Are you seriously going to suggest that in this case the most selfish route---raping the woman because it is the easiest way to get the sex you want---is a moral one?

The rapist is not nearly "selfish" enough.

It would be far more selfish (and wise) to value sex so much that you would value romance and caring at the same time. Sex without the experience of meaningful reciprocation and its place in one's complete life is ultimately an empty experience. The rapist limits and degrades himself as much, and perhaps more thoroughly, than his victims.

I'm introducing the idea here that self-interest is not properly an answer to the question: What do I want?

The wise person understands that it is an answer to the question: What do I need?

When you understand your needs as they truly are, then you will understand what is truly in your self-interest.


eudaimonia,

Mark