Do we go straight to heaven when we die? (ritual, paradise)

[athanasius]

Originally Posted by roli

I understand that purgatory is your belief and in it almost gives a sense of hope, in that, if I mess up here, I or someone who prays for me can get me out.
But it also gives people the freedom to live this life as they see fit ,indulging in the pleasures of sin for a season, knowing I will still go to heaven on my own merit or that of a loved one who can pray me out.
In God's kingdom though,it just does'nt work like that.
But the cross of Jesus Christ is the only thing, that if one accepts in this life will position them for heaven,if it where any other formula,than Christ,Christ would have come to die in vain ,because you are saying you can get yourself into heaven your way.
It seems like a win win situation for those who believe that way,but that is not what God says proceeds death,he says, "it is appointed man to die once,then judgement", no stopping and collecting 200$ ,no chances at cleaning oneself up.
When we close our lives in this life ,what we did here ,our choices to believe and accept Jesus as Lord and Savior will be all that matters.
According to the word of God there is no place to get cleaned up accept at the cross.
The moment one believes and receives Christ and the Holy Spirit,their position in heaven is secured,not that gives them a license to sin and carrying in the carnal pleasures, but they are declared righteous and the process of sactification begins which will take the rest of one's natural life.
To some they might develope and mature faster,because they are submissive and humble in their surrendering to Christ and denying the flesh.
It is while we are here that we have that opportunity to choose heaven.
Ou choices are removed when we die

This belief is shared among Christians who are born again believer's and is recorded in scripture.

Thanks for your take on this. I am afraid that you do not understand the catholic concept of purgatory. Purgatory does not give one a licencse to live as they want and keep sinning. You cannot get to purgatory if you have commited Mortal sin. We Catholics have no problem believing in Christ and his Cross becuase we teach that no one is saved but by Christ Cross. We do not believe Christ died in vain. The cross is sancitifcation accomplished, Purgaotry is sanctification applied.The Person in Purgatory is a saved person(By Christ Cross). Purgatory as I mentioned earlier is the Final rush of our sanctification/purification(Christ making us perfect Holy) so as to enter heaven. All of our sanctification comes from Christ and his Cross. As I mentioned earlier we are simply cleaned up and made perfect. Jesus and the Holy spirit are the Soap that cleans us up. We will suffer loss in the fires of purgatory(the loss of our selfishness and imperfections) but we will be saved(1 cor 3:10-15) and like anyone who suffers, we beleive that we can pray for the soul of the person suffering and God may help him/or her just like he does here on earth.

I respect your opinion but I disagree. I would also say that are over 80 passages in the bible that speak of loosing your salvation and turning away from God, so I would dissagree with your assesment that we are eternally secure. The book of Hebrews alone is enough to demonstrate that. But That is off topic.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by joeboonda

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

How do you reconcile your interpretation with Jesus' statement to Mary on Easter morning (as described John 20:17)? When she approached Him, seeing Him for the first time as a resurrected being, He said, "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father." He was saying that He hadn't been to His Father in Heaven, but we know He'd been to Paradise.

[athanasius]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

How do you reconcile your interpretation with Jesus' statement to Mary on Easter morning (as described John 20:17)? When she approached Him, seeing Him for the first time as a resurrected being, He said, "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father." He was saying that He hadn't been to His Father in Heaven, but we know He'd been to Paradise.

Good insight Katz!

[Comet]

I don't believe in Heaven or Hell, they are irrelivant. It doesn't matter where you go after this life, it matters where you end up in the end of things..... the begining.

[roli]

[quote]

Originally Posted by athanasius

Thanks for your take on this. I am afraid that you do not understand the catholic concept of purgatory.

It should'nt matter what catholics or pentecostals have to say about certain beliefs and what was past down through tradition,but only what Christ says from the word,that is our source,so before you tell me I 'm wrong , please,make sure what you are saying is backed up from scripture.

Purgatory does not give one a licencse to live as they want and keep sinning. You cannot get to purgatory if you have commited Mortal sin.

I want to go see Jesus when I die,there is no middle place of waiting ,maybe for those before Christ was glorified.
Please show me in the scriptures where this purgatory is mentioned and where it is the next destination after death.I'll show you where we go to be judged

We Catholics have no problem believing in Christ and his Cross becuase we teach that no one is saved but by Christ Cross.

Amen! but you must teach the whole of scripture then,agreed !!

We do not believe Christ died in vain.

If what I know of catholicism is true,there is certainly alot of external works to do and I think we both know what the catholic protocol is in order to be right with God and go to heaven. It is much more then receiving Christ.If we are honest,according to Catholic tradition anyways.

The cross is sancitifcation accomplished, Purgaotry is sanctification applied.

Please explain what this means to you and tell me how purgatory is applied for sancitification.
Could you use scripture ,in context and with actual meanings.
Remember the word "sancitification actually means to be separated unto God,it is the same word for holiness, so we are to be separated from evil in this world,that by the way,is a life long process,otherwise, God would have taken us all home at slavation,I mean if there was nothing left to set us apart from.

The Person in Purgatory is a saved person(By Christ Cross).

How are they saved and end up in purgatory, when Paul says, to be absent from the body is to be present with the lord" and Jesus says, to the thief,who was'nt baptised, never went to church,"you will be with me in paradise.
That may have been Abraham's bosom until Christ rose from the grave and led captivity captive

Purgatory as I mentioned earlier is the Final rush of our sanctification/purification(Christ making us perfect Holy) so as to enter heaven. All of our sanctification comes from Christ and his Cross.

Christ makes us righteous at slavation,or in right standing with God,sanctification is a process of being separated from this evil world and holy unto God ,which is our resonable service.

we beleive that we can pray for the soul of the person suffering and God may help him/or her just like he does here on earth.

Acts says :
Act 4:12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

I respect your opinion but I disagree.

I respect your opinion,but I only disagree with those who do not line up with scripture

I would also say that are over 80 passages in the bible that speak of loosing your salvation and turning away from God, so I would dissagree with your assesment that we are eternally secure.

I understand that there are several scriptures that indicate a type of losing one's salvation,but the question is ,was that person really saved in the first place.
Read the parable of the 4 soils ,I just did a study on them myself ,many heard the word,but 3of the 4 were unfruitful
Jud 1:24Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

[roli]

Originally Posted by Comet

I don't believe in Heaven or Hell, they are irrelivant. It doesn't matter where you go after this life, it matters where you end up in the end of things..... the begining.

Your belief or disbelief means very little to what is truth.
Your entitled to an opinion but it is really only that, what you and I believe changes nothing regarding the existence of heaven and judgement

[athanasius]

[quote=roli;845052]

It should'nt matter what catholics or pentecostals have to say about certain beliefs and what was past down through tradition,but only what Christ says from the word,that is our source,so before you tell me I 'm wrong , please,make sure what you are saying is backed up from scripture.


I want to go see Jesus when I die,there is no middle place of waiting ,maybe for those before Christ was glorified.
Please show me in the scriptures where this purgatory is mentioned and where it is the next destination after death.I'll show you where we go to be judged


Amen! but you must teach the whole of scripture then,agreed !!


If what I know of catholicism is true,there is certainly alot of external works to do and I think we both know what the catholic protocol is in order to be right with God and go to heaven. It is much more then receiving Christ.If we are honest,according to Catholic tradition anyways.



Please explain what this means to you and tell me how purgatory is applied for sancitification.
Could you use scripture ,in context and with actual meanings.
Remember the word "sancitification actually means to be separated unto God,it is the same word for holiness, so we are to be separated from evil in this world,that by the way,is a life long process,otherwise, God would have taken us all home at slavation,I mean if there was nothing left to set us apart from.



How are they saved and end up in purgatory, when Paul says, to be absent from the body is to be present with the lord" and Jesus says, to the thief,who was'nt baptised, never went to church,"you will be with me in paradise.
That may have been Abraham's bosom until Christ rose from the grave and led captivity captive


Christ makes us righteous at slavation,or in right standing with God,sanctification is a process of being separated from this evil world and holy unto God ,which is our resonable service.


Acts says :
Act 4:12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.


I respect your opinion,but I only disagree with those who do not line up with scripture



I understand that there are several scriptures that indicate a type of losing one's salvation,but the question is ,was that person really saved in the first place.
Read the parable of the 4 soils ,I just did a study on them myself ,many heard the word,but 3of the 4 were unfruitful
Jud 1:24Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

You said:
It should'nt matter what catholics or pentecostals have to say about certain beliefs and what was past down through tradition,but only what Christ says from the word,that is our source,so before you tell me I 'm wrong , please,make sure what you are saying is backed up from scripture.

My answer:

Thanks brother for your opinion. God bless you. I, as a Catholic would argue that we do need to listen and obey the word of God that Jesus gave us. But I would politely disagree with you when you say that we shouldn't listen to what was passed down through oral apostolic tradition. The Word of God consist with both the Written word and the Oral spoken Traditions(Oral word) that are handed to us and that we Christians are to hold fast to both of them(2 Thess 2:15). Given that also I would also say that I do not have to back everything I believe with scripture. Scripture nowhere makes that statement that every doctrine must be back up by scripture alone. That is a false doctrine that was invented 1520 years later with Martin Luther. But I have given you scripture that shows the catholic understanding of Purgatory(remember 1 Cor 3:10-15 that I quoted)

You said:
I want to go see Jesus when I die,there is no middle place of waiting ,maybe for those before Christ was glorified.
Please show me in the scriptures where this purgatory is mentioned and where it is the next destination after death.I'll show you where we go to be judged

My answer:
I have already shown this in 1 Cor 3:10-15 but Jesus alludes to it in a implicit way in Matt 5:24-26.

You said:
Amen! but you must teach the whole of scripture then,agreed !!

My answer:
I agree and I would point that remark back at you.


You said:
If what I know of catholicism is true,there is certainly alot of external works to do and I think we both know what the catholic protocol is in order to be right with God and go to heaven. It is much more then receiving Christ.If we are honest,according to Catholic tradition anyways.

My answer:
This is off topic. You clearly misunderstand what rhe Catholic teaches about salvation. If you would like to discuss this personally with me, we can look at he bible together on this issue if you send me private message.


You said:
Please explain what this means to you and tell me how purgatory is applied for sancitification.
Could you use scripture ,in context and with actual meanings.
Remember the word "sancitification actually means to be separated unto God,it is the same word for holiness, so we are to be separated from evil in this world,that by the way,is a life long process,otherwise, God would have taken us all home at slavation,I mean if there was nothing left to set us apart from.

My answer:
I think we both agree here. There are many ways that christ Sanctifies(Makes Holy) a individual. He does it initially at baptism, and he does it throughout the believers life by way of suffering. This is how sanctification is applied to us. Well, If you die and you are not completely sanctified(as sanctification is a process) then Jesus simply completes the process buy purging away your sinfulness and selfishness after you die. That is all.


You said:
How are they saved and end up in purgatory, when Paul says, to be absent from the body is to be present with the lord" and Jesus says, to the thief,who was'nt baptised, never went to church,"you will be with me in paradise.That may have been Abraham's bosom until Christ rose from the grave and led captivity captive

My answer:
Yes the Catholic view agrees with scripture. Paul is one who also says that they are saved but yet only as fleeing through fire(1 Cor 3:15). When they die they are in the presence with the Lord. It is the Lord himself (the fire of the Holy Spirit) that purges or sanctifies you in purgatory. So no problem there. The “normative” way for a person to be saved is by baptism(Jn 3:3-5, 1 Peter 3:19-21, Titus 3:5-7) and faith(Jn 3:16, Rom 10:9). Since the thief could not get up from his cross and do those things, Jesus made a exception. Jesus is merciful. That is again off the subject,.

You said:
Christ makes us righteous at slavation,or in right standing with God,sanctification is a process of being separated from this evil world and holy unto God ,which is our resonable service.

My answer:
I agree with you here so does the Catholic church.


You said:
Acts says :
Act 4:12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

My answer:
I have no idea how this passage has anything to do with Purgatory? You confuse me?

You said:
I respect your opinion,but I only disagree with those who do not line up with scripture

My answer:
Right back at you.

You said:
I understand that there are several scriptures that indicate a type of losing one's salvation,but the question is ,was that person really saved in the first place.
Read the parable of the 4 soils ,I just did a study on them myself ,many heard the word,but 3of the 4 were unfruitful

My answer:

I have read plenty especially in Hebrews and the Gospels that indicate that a saved individual can loose his salvation. But again that is another topic. So if you want to exegete theses passages please send me a private messages and I will show you.

Well I hope that help my good friend. God bless you always and its great talking to you in Jesus through Mary,
Athanasius

[joeboonda]

We will suffer loss in the fires of purgatory(the loss of our selfishness and imperfections) but we will be saved(1 cor 3:10-15) and like anyone who suffers, we beleive that we can pray for the soul of the person suffering and God may help him/or her just like he does here on earth.

That passage is on the Judgement Seat of Christ for believers for works done good or bad for reward, some with no works or wrong motivations will see them burn up yet they will be saved. It is our works that burn up, not us. 1 Cor 15 and I Thess 4 say we will be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, we will put on incorruption (be sinless), immortality, and glorified in our newly transformed bodies. There will be NO purification going on, Christ has already made us positionaly pure, and in that moment when we are transformed, we will be complete. We have Christs' righteousness insead of our own and His blood that washed away all our sin, gone and forgotten. Purgatory is not the blessed hope of every believer Titus spoke of, it is not in the Bible.

I respect your opinion but I disagree. I would also say that are over 80 passages in the bible that speak of loosing your salvation and turning away from God, so I would dissagree with your assesment that we are eternally secure. The book of Hebrews alone is enough to demonstrate that. But That is off topic.

Again, people do not understand what Christ did for us the moment we believed, He forgave ALL our sins, gave us HIS righteousness, justified us, sanctified us, sealed us UNTIL the day of redemption with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, made us a NEW creation, adopted us into His family, made us sons of God, declared that we HAVE eternal life, we HAVE NOW recieved the atonement, we ARE passed from death to life NEVER to go back into condemnation, saved us to the UTTERMOST, makes INTERCESSION for us as our advocate, will NEVER cast us out, gave us ETERNAL life, says we will NEVER perish, and NOTHING can take us out of His hands. It is called "this SO GREAT salvation" by Peter, Jesus did it ALL, HE washed us and purified us, it is done and we can rest eternally secure in His arms and have no fear of a lie called purgatory. Hey man, that's just what I very strongly believe from the Bible.
Peace,
Mike

[joeboonda]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

How do you reconcile your interpretation with Jesus' statement to Mary on Easter morning (as described John 20:17)? When she approached Him, seeing Him for the first time as a resurrected being, He said, "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father." He was saying that He hadn't been to His Father in Heaven, but we know