One thing in my way (Jesus, priest, moral, punishment)

[joeboonda]

From the end of one of D.L. Moody's sermons:


I remember a few years ago, while the Spirit of God was working in my Church, I closed the meeting one night by asking any that would like to become Christians to rise, and to my great joy, a man arose who had been anxious for some time. I went up to him and took him by the hand and shook it, and said, "I am glad to see you get up. You are coming out for the Lord now in earnest, are you not?"
"Yes," said he, "I think so. That is, there is only one thing in my way."
"What's that?" said 1.
"Well," said he, "I lack moral courage. I confess to you that if such a man [naming a friend of his] had been here tonight I should not have risen. He would laugh at me if he knew of this, and I don't believe I have the courage to tell him."
"But," said I, "You have got to come out boldly for the Lord if you come out at all."
While I talked with him he was trembling from head to foot, and I believe the Spirit was striving earnestly with him. He came back the next night, and the next, and the next; the Spirit of God strove with him for weeks; it seemed as if he came to the very threshold of Heaven, and was almost stepping over into the blessed world. I never could find out any reason for his hesitation, except that he feared his old companions would laugh at him.
At last the Spirit of God seemed to leave him; conviction was gone. Six months from that time I got a message from him that he was sick and wanted to see me. I went to him in great haste. He was very sick, and thought he was dying. He asked me if there was any hope. Yes, I told him, God had sent Christ to save him; and I prayed with him.
Contrary to all expectations he recovered. One day I went down to see him. It was a bright, beautiful day, and he was sitting out in front of his house.
"You are coming out for God now, aren't you? You will be well enough soon to come back to our meetings again."
"Mr. Moody," said he, "I have made up my mind to become a Christian. My mind is fully made up to that, but I wont't be one just now. I am going to Michigan to buy a farm and settle down, and then I will become a Christian."
"But you don't know yet that you will get well."
"O," said he, "I shall be perfectly well in a few days. I have got a new lease of life."
I pleaded with him, and tried every way to get him to take his stand. At last he said, "Mr. Moody, I can't be a Christian in Chicago. When I get away from Chicago, and get to Michigan, away from my friends and acquaintances who laugh at me, I will be ready to go to Christ."
"If God has not Grace enough to save you in Chicago, he has not in Michigan" I answered.
At last he got a little irritated and said, "Mr. Moody, I'll take the risk," and so I left him.
I well remember the day of the week, Thursday, about noon, just one week from that very day, when I was sent for by his wife to come in great haste. I hurried there at once. His poor wife met me at the door, and I asked her what was the matter.
"My husband," she said, "has had a relapse; I have just had a council of physicians here, and they have all given him up to die."
"Does he want to see me?" I asked.
"No."
"Then why did you send for me?"
"I cannot bear to see him die in this terrible siate of mind."
"What does he say?" I asked.
"He says his damnation is sealed, and he will be in hell in a little while."
I went in, and he at once fixed his eyes upon me. I called him by name, but he was silent. I went around to the foot of the bed, and looked in his face and said, "Won't you speak to me?", and at last he fixed that terrible deathly look upon me and said:
"Mr. Moody, you need not talk to me any more. It is too late. You can talk to my wife and children; pray for them; but my heart is as hard as the iron in that stove there. My damnation is sealed, and I shall be in hell in a little while."
I tried to tell him of Jesus' love and God's forgiveness, but he said, "Mr. Moody, I tell you there is no hope for me." And as I fell on my knees, he said, "You need not pray for me. My wife will soon be left a widow and my children will be fatherless; they need your prayers, but you need not pray for me."
I tried to pray, but it seemed as if my prayers didn't go higher than my head, and as if Heaven above me was like brass. The next day, his wife told me, he lingered until the sun went down, and from noon until he died all he was heard to say was, "The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and I am not saved." After lingering along for an hour he would say again those awful words, and just as he was expiring his wife noticed his lips quiver, and that he was trying to say something, and as she bent over him she heard him mutter, "The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and I am not saved." He lived a Christless life, he died a Christless death - we wrapped him in a Christless shroud, and bore him away to a Christless grave. Are there some here that are almost persuaded to be Christians? Take my advice and don't let any thing keep you away. Fly to the arms of Jesus this hour. You can be saved if you will.

[*Paul*]

It's a heartbreaking account but so common, I havea friend who said to me perhaps one day.
God is not our plaything. the Spirit urges us:

Hebrews 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

2nd Corinthians 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

TODAY is the key, if you hear his voice call to your heart, do not send HIm away to come back at a more convenient time. GOd is not our plaything for us to summon at our will, He is the Sovereign Lord of the universe and if you hear His voice calling you to Him you had better flee to His arms and surrender all to Him.

It reminds me of silly Felix:

Acts 24:24-25 And after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, which was a Jewess, he sent for Paul, and heard him concerning the faith in Christ. And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee.

And Agrippa:
Acts 26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

Almost persuaded by Philip P. Bliss, 1838-1876

"Almost persuaded" now to believe;
"Almost persuaded" Christ to receive;
Seems now some soul to say:
Go, Spirit, go Thy way;
Some more convenient day On Thee I'll call.

"Almost persuaded," come, come today!
"Almost persuaded," turn not away;
Jesus invites you here;
Angels are ling'ring near;
Prayers rise from hearts so dear; O wand'rer, come!

"Almost persuaded": harvest is past!
"Almost persuaded": doom comes at last;
"Almost" cannot avail;
"Almost" is but to fail;
Sad, sad, that bitter wail: "Almost"— but lost!

[roli]

That is so true, people are so controlled by what main stream society depicts,God forbid I take a stand for God ,how will I look ? ,what will they say?.
But when 911 strikes in someones life ,many who are not so proud,will and actually did reach out to God.
It seems that is much the way many in our comfortable, materialistic, indulgent society seem to live.
I will call on God on my terms and conditions as long as God does'nt expect too much.
That is why many seem to form and fashion a god in their minds that caters to one's particular lifestyle and makes God a type of jack in the box.

So my point is that the one thing in a person's way in finding God, is themselves !!

[ayani]

i do not feel that the case of this man is sealed. is God's love and mercy truly so limited as in this story? do you guys truly believe that God can not save a man from misery after death because that man's heart is not able or willing to accept a fixed, specific theological assumption, based upon one interpretation regarding the existence of one man 2000 years ago in Palestine? i would say that i can not and do not believe that. i would like to quote a conversation i had with a Muslim friend, regarding a mutual friend of ours who is an atheist:

me: "do you want Aybars to go to hell?"
him: "no! i love this guy!"
me: "so you would not send him to hell?"
him: "no, he is a pain in the *** to me, but i would not send him to hell."
me: "so if you love him enough to not send him to hell, how can you assume that God, who is, to you, the All-Forgiving and the Merciful, would not love him enough to save him from hell? is God's love limited by a creed? are you more capable of love and forgiveness than God?"

[joeboonda]

Originally Posted by gracie

i do not feel that the case of this man is sealed. is God's love and mercy truly so limited as in this story? do you guys truly believe that God can not save a man from misery after death because that man's heart is not able or willing to accept a fixed, specific theological assumption, based upon one interpretation regarding the existence of one man 2000 years ago in Palestine? i would say that i can not and do not believe that. i would like to quote a conversation i had with a Muslim friend, regarding a mutual friend of ours who is an atheist:

me: "do you want Aybars to go to hell?"
him: "no! i love this guy!"
me: "so you would not send him to hell?"
him: "no, he is a pain in the *** to me, but i would not send him to hell."
me: "so if you love him enough to not send him to hell, how can you assume that God, who is, to you, the All-Forgiving and the Merciful, would not love him enough to save him from hell? is God's love limited by a creed? are you more capable of love and forgiveness than God?"

God's Word is very clear on this. There is no second chance beyond the grave! Nowhere in God's Word does it say we have another chance beyond the grave, that was the common understanding, we are judged for the choices we make in this life now:


Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Luke 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
2 Corinthians 6:2
(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
Luke 16:22-23
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
John 3:16-19
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

[ayani]

God's Word is very clear on this. There is no second chance beyond the grave! Nowhere in God's Word does it say we have another chance beyond the grave, that was the common understanding, we are judged for the choices we make in this life now:

but don't you see how terribly this limits the idea of God? it would be like an all-powerful king saying to some children trapped in a burning building "i am sorry- i love you kids very much, but i can not save your lives because there are some peasants here who say that i can't be able to save you!"

where does that leave God's ultimate love and authority? is God limited by the Bible? can He only do what the Bible (or Quran, or...) says He can?

i am reminded of the story of the Good Samaritan. what people fail to realize is how bitterly theologically opposed Jews and Samaritans were. the modern context would be like "the Good Muslim", or "the Good Buddhist". yet the man, by virtue of his creed, was not limited from doing God's will and responding in a righteous way, and Jesus sets him as an example of a righteous man. not the priest or the doctor who believed in the words of the Torah and felt themsleves saved, but the Samaritan, the non-believer who did good, is lifted up. does the story end with the Samaritan accepting mainstream Judaism or becoming a Christian? no! it ends with him being compassionate, selfless, still a Samaritan, and blessed.

[ayani]

and could you please answer my question... without quoting the Bible if that's ok, but please in your own words.

is Mahmoud more capable of love and forgiveness than an All-Mighty God, the Ruler of the universe? is Mahmoud a more loving and forgiving being than God Himself? it would seem so, according to his own beliefs, and perhaps to yours. i find that... strange.

that we should be able to love more perfectly and inclusively than God, who would seem to be limited to single interpretation of a text written in a human language.

[PureX]

I don't believe for an instant that that man went to "hell". Not for an instant.

D.L. Moody was a fool, and should have explained to that man that he was loved and saved regardles of his doubts or hesitation.

[joeboonda]

Originally Posted by gracie

but don't you see how terribly this limits the idea of God? it would be like an all-powerful king saying to some children trapped in a burning building "i am sorry- i love you kids very much, but i can not save your lives because there are some peasants here who say that i can't be able to save you!"

where does that leave God's ultimate love and authority? is God limited by the Bible? can He only do what the Bible (or Quran, or...) says He can?

i am reminded of the story of the Good Samaritan. what people fail to realize is how bitterly theologically opposed Jews and Samaritans were. the modern context would be like "the Good Muslim", or "the Good Buddhist". yet the man, by virtue of his creed, was not limited from doing God's will and responding in a righteous way, and Jesus sets him as an example of a righteous man. not the priest or the doctor who believed in the words of the Torah and felt themsleves saved, but the Samaritan, the non-believer who did good, is lifted up. does the story end with the Samaritan accepting mainstream Judaism or becoming a Christian? no! it ends with him being compassionate, selfless, still a Samaritan, and blessed.

It does not limit God. God is also Holy and Just. He is fair and will fairly judge all men. I must take the Bible as authority for the God of the Bible knew the future and foretold specific events in detail and they occurred, hundreds of prophecies that came true. God will not let evil go unchecked, I am not talking about good people who are earnestly searching for the truth, God is fair, but I assure you no practicing pedophile, rapist, murderer, thief, liar or any other wicked creature will be in Heaven.

[joeboonda]

Originally Posted by gracie

and could you please answer my question... without quoting the Bible if that's ok, but please in your own words.

is Mahmoud more capable of love and forgiveness than an All-Mighty God, the Ruler of the universe? is Mahmoud a more loving and forgiving being than God Himself? it would seem so, according to his own beliefs, and perhaps to yours. i find that... strange.

that we should be able to love more perfectly and inclusively than God, who would seem to be limited to single interpretation of a text written in a human language.

I know God is love and God is just, and pardon my ignorance, but who is Mahmoud?
Yes, again, the Bible is the only authority I find completely trustworthy.