Hell,a geographical destination,or a state of the mind (Jesus, punishment)

[Darkness]

Originally Posted by roli

One must be certain they are declared just before a Holy God who will not allow sin into his presence, for there is no return

Originally Posted by roli

God is holy, we are sinners and all our righteousness is as filthy rags compared to a holy God.

Hail All Merciful God! You sure are merciful to beings of lesser brilliance than yourself. Thank you for giving us a chance to stop you from torturing us infinitely more than Hitler ever did. All Hail, Our Loving Father!

[lillitruthseeker]

this is very interesting and if there would be a place for bad people to go it would be suitable --

but when it says that the only way not to go to hell is to accept Jesus and your savior -- that means that all the child molesters, murderers, rapists etc. when they accept jesus they go to heaven?

so is heaven filled with all these despicable people? hell would contain the baddest of the bad and non-believers but isnt heaven going to be filled with the same caliber of horrible awful people too?

that just doesnt seem right -- why would God forgive those people? just because they asked and repented?

so it would be possible to face your abuser in heaven?

[des]

Yeah there are (a lot of verses in the Bible re: hell). And they are pretty much *not* in Mark and Luke. John often wrote highly metaphorically. And Matthew was persecuted for being a Christian so he had reasons for being so angry. In Matthew you read where Jesus called people "vipers" and so on. I think there is one reference to hell in Luke, and this is where you get all the famed inferences about a "drop of water" and so on. The thing is this story, about Lazurus was NOT really about hell. Some Christians are so into the idea of hell (nice way to scare people into Christianity), that they don't recognize this is a story not about hell at all, but about how you treat the poor-- and Jesus' view of the poor, who were/are often sigmatized.

BTW, when I write Matthew said and so on, I don't mean that a guy named Matthew, but whoever wrote Matthew, etc. Most Biblical scholars also believe Mark was the earliest Gospel. There are no references to hell (as far as I know), no references to Christianity as the only way,etc etc. Interesting.

So the references to hell are not all over the place, but actually quite "localized" and may have as much to do (or MORE) with the person who wrote the text as the person being written about. The angry Matthew is spewing out his frustration and angst all over the place; Luke writes to non-Jews so there are references to all sorts of others aside from Jews; and Mark is primarily writing to Jews.

Strategically speaking, I think the discussion of hell to nonbelievers would not be a very good point in God's favor, since it usually casts God in a role of sending wonderful non-believers (say the Dali Lama) to a firey eternity in hell and total (but believing) jerks like Pat Robertson to heaven. Gosh darn now , don't you just want to get cozy with such a being?? Some of us, would totally reject this sort of concept out of moral principles alone. (I guess I am putting myself in the "nonbeliever" group since I am a progressive. :-))

Yes, I believe in a mental/state of mind/action hell or heaven. And I also believe we are working on turning our own planet into the garbage heap hell kind of place.


--des

Originally Posted by ChristineES

There are hundreds of verses in the Four Gospels and you only list a few that talk about what you are saying about Hell. I think that Christians talk about Hell way too much and worshipping God too little.
All I was trying to say is when talking to a nonbeliever, you should talk about what God will do for them and not dwell so much on saying what will happen if they don't believe. It has the opposite effect of what you would want,I have heard hundreds of would be believers say so! You want to do good, I can see that very, very much. It may be effective for some to hear about it, but for most people it does not work, and it turns them away before they even have a chance to accept. We all want people to accept Jesus, and there is a right way and a not so good way to do it.
I am not against what you are saying and we are not in total disagreement. I grew up with a mother who was an atheist and later became agnostic before she finally accept Christ in middle age(not long after she found out her mother was a Jew). I know only too much what goes in the mind of at least one nonbeliever and somewhat in several others I have known. I am going by what nonbelievers have said to me in the past. We want to win them and not lose them.
God Bless.

[Booko]

Originally Posted by roli

The bible is so clear and I can list several verses that deal with those who refuse to accept Christ.

Sometime when you have a bit of time to spare, it would interesting to hear your views on what it means to "refuse to accept Christ."

That's fodder for a new thread, I expect.

[UnTheist]

Originally Posted by roli

Is Allah your Savior and Lord,interesting concept if so

It seems you didn't get the question.

[roli]

[quote]

Originally Posted by lillitruthseeker

this is very interesting and if there would be a place for bad people to go it would be suitable --

Jesus Clearly distinguishes two locations, next to him and those away from him
Matt 25 where he separates the sheep and the goats is a good place to start.
where he says Mat 25:41 ....Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

but when it says that the only way not to go to hell is to accept Jesus and your savior -- that means that all the child molesters, murderers, rapists etc. when they accept jesus they go to heaven?

That is God's plan of salvation to the world ,to thos ewho believe.
We rate our sin and compare and judge according to it's severity in relation to others sins.
When God forgives ,he forgives even the worst,we think our lying,stealing ,covetous, adultrous ways are somehow more righteous than the murder.
Paul helped murder christians.
Moses was a murderer
David ,King David was a murderer, who are we to tell God who to forgive or not

so is heaven filled with all these despicable people? hell would contain the baddest of the bad and non-believers but isnt heaven going to be filled with the same caliber of horrible awful people too?

we are all sinners ,but when we trust Christ as Savior believing he died to remove by sin stain,we become the righteousness of Christ and God see's us through His blood,our sins are removed,forgiven we are redeemed.
If a murderer only uses Christianity to get off his penalty or to manipulate people or even God ,I am oretty sure God will see through that.
Grace is no license to sin.We really don't comprehend God's ability to love, forgive and forgive and wait for us to turn to him.
His ways are far above our ways

that just doesnt seem right -- why would God forgive those people? just because they asked and repented?

Again we all need his grace and mercy,would you plead for you soul ,if God was about to cast you into hell for all your sins.
That is what man must do now before it's too late,repent and cry out for God to save them ,they will do it ,willingly or unwillingly at which point it will be too late.
The world looks at criminals that have committed outward acts and we use our logic and reasoning mind to sentence them ,yet we overlook the fact that if our personal life was played on a jumbo screen for all the wolrd ,especially our close friends,would you have something to hide and be remorseful for.
God wipes slates clean and clear and he fully pardons sinner of all kinds.
That' our problem man can only love and forgive if it falls in line with their agenda's

so it would be possible to face your abuser in heaven

As christians ,who have Christ living within a believer ,we now should and then we will look to those in heaven as family,the carnal man can'nt fathom that concept ,and many use it as one of the many reasons they take opposition to God

[roli]

Originally Posted by Booko

Sometime when you have a bit of time to spare, it would interesting to hear your views on what it means to "refuse to accept Christ."

That's fodder for a new thread, I expect.

When you break any law ,in this world either natural laws or civil,you will require and desire some sort of justification and or atonement for violating these laws.
You see my ex girlfreind committed suicide several years ago,when she jumped the first time I reached out and grabbed her,the second time she landed 8 floors down on the concrete,if there was a mattress or snow bank she may have been saved.
I just heard of a 9yr old boy who fell 9 floors and lived ,because the ground was soft,amazing but more a miracle than anything.
You,see what I mean,jump from a plane you need a parachute,jump into eternity after this life,we will need a means to be justified,redeemed,atoned for because we violate God's moral law written on our hearts/
That is the case ,many refuse to accept this notion as it seems irrational,but I assure anyone that as irrational as it may seem it is a principal of life ,violation of any law is consequence,but God sent his son to justify and redeem from that place of violation
But as logical as man think they are ,they spome how seem to be above such mythical type fairy tales as I have heard it said.
So whatelese is there to say,believe or don';t and I guess time will proove everyone of us right or wrong
Simply put ,according to Jesus,if your ashamed to come to him due to pride,arrogance,your surpassing knowledge that stands above God, rebellion ,He will be ashamed of you when he comes with His holy angels.Mar 8:38

If you continue to disbeleive,you will stand condemned as you did not receive the perfect sacrifice that was made from the foundations of the world for you and I
Jhn 3:18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

[roli]

Originally Posted by Darkness

Hail All Merciful God! You sure are merciful to beings of lesser brilliance than yourself. Thank you for giving us a chance to stop you from torturing us infinitely more than Hitler ever did. All Hail, Our Loving Father!

I take it you are being a bit sarcastic,or am I wrong,I am looking at your title as agnostic,/atheist / non theist ,

[roli]

[quote]

Originally Posted by MysticSang'ha

Hell, according to my interpretation of the Buddha-Dharma, is a mental projection, and therefore an experience of enormous suffering which we project out to others and henceforth boomerangs back to bite us in the arse.

I see,

Our repeated thoughts become our speech.
Our repeated speech become our actions.
Our repeated actions become out habits.
Our repeated habits become our character.
Our repeated characters become our destiny.

I like that !!!

Hell is a destination of our actions and intentions. It is that simple of a formula, and no belief ever saves a wicked heart who succeeds in performing wicked deeds from a lower realm in the desire realms of samsara.

That is how Jesus explains it

BTW roli, I thought this thread was introduced in Theological Concepts and not in one the debate threads. Though, it seems you are ready to debate. If you want to continue with responding to others' replies with a challenge, wouldn't it be proper to move this to the Religious Debates forums?

We could ,i am not sure where it is,if there is no objection we can keep it here,it's a title that will or could draw the crowd