What has your God done for you??? (Jesus, priest, ritual)

[MaddLlama]

Originally Posted by roli

What things do your gods have in place that cause you to live morally

Is the understanding of cause and effect not good enough? Does a religion need to have a book of rules for its followers to be "moral", or is the statement that "you reap what you sow" just as sufficient?

[roli]

Originally Posted by MaddLlama

Is the understanding of cause and effect not good enough? Does a religion need to have a book of rules for its followers to be "moral", or is the statement that "you reap what you sow" just as sufficient?

The law, be it the moral,natural or civil constantly tells people they are not to do this or that,for there willl be consequences,but to many that is not a deterrent enough.
Many think somehow or other when they violate a law and they don't experience immediate consequences they somehow evaded the effects of violation of that law.Effect or karma as some call it,, could come 20 yrs down the road but from God's perspective lawlessness will be revealed when one closes their eyes to this life
The law was never intended to make anyone moral or righteous,it was a mirror that only ever showed a person their true nature.
A mirror never makes anyone dirty it just reveals their true condition

The law never justified it only brought guilt.Jesus claims,he removes the stain of sin,which is transgression of the law.
But that must experienced

[MaddLlama]

Originally Posted by roli

The law, be it the moral,natural or civil constantly tells people they are not to do this or that,for there willl be consequences,but to many that is not a deterrent enough.
Many think somehow or other when they violate a law and they don't experience immediate consequences they somehow evaded the effects of violation of that law.Effect or karma as some call it,, could come 20 yrs down the road but from God's perspective lawlessness will be revealed when one closes their eyes to this life
The law was never intended to make anyone moral or righteous,it was a mirror that only ever showed a person their true nature.
A mirror never makes anyone dirty it just reveals their true condition

The law never justified it only brought guilt.Jesus claims,he removes the stain of sin,which is transgression of the law.
But that must experienced

I still say that if a person realizes that thier actions have concequences, goor or bad, that that is a moral code enough, and they don't need a big book of rules.

Even if you give people the "Big Book of Things You're Not Supposed to Do", people are going to do it anyway. So, it doesn't make one system of "morality" better than the other.

[Wandered Off]

Originally Posted by roli

I agree many a men have done much to distort,alter and sabotage the message of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

That's just one of many problems with this communication method. God's message should not have to depend on the fickle will and built-in shortcomings of humans to print it, to translate it, or to distribute and deliver it. This is why I believe the only real revelation we get is the universe itself. It does not depend on humans for anything.

Jesus brought the message to the gentiles who would believe in Him to provoke the jews to jealousy.

Provoking people to jealousy sounds like something an immature child would do, rather beneath the creator of the universe. Like so many of the other actions documented in holy texts, it smacks of anthropic projection. So many images like that are another reason I doubt second-hand revelation. I simply can't abide the idea that God is nearly as petty and cruel as often depicted in holy texts. My reverence for deity can't reconcile the two, so I prefer to doubt human-written documents.

Well,if you gave your son as a sacrifice to save my family,how could I possibly believe you were'nt interested in their life if you gave up your own flesh and blood.

I'm not convinced God did any of that, because it simply doesn't make sense. The universe to me reflects a rational order, evoking a sensible God, not an irrational one. For example, I don't see how it was as huge a sacrifice as you make it out to be. He was gone less time than a Blockbuster rental, and he got to come back as supreme ruler of the universe. When humans sacrifice something, we LOSE it. When humans pay for their own sin, we suffer eternal torment (according to the texts), not three days appearing to people we knew. This doesn't even address how abhorrent child sacrifice is in the first place. The notion that the creator of the orderly universe would come up with such a bizarre system specifically for humans is far-fetched to my way of thinking.

Please understand, roli, I say these things to share my perspective, not to attack your beliefs. This is nothing more than why my perspective says that God didn't do anything specifically for me. These are all matters of faith, so I admit up from the strong probability that I am wrong. Such is the nature of faith.

[roli]

[

quote=Wandered Off]That's just one of many problems with this communication method. God's message should not have to depend on the fickle will and built-in shortcomings of humans to print it, to translate it, or to distribute and deliver it. This is why I believe the only real revelation we get is the universe itself. It does not depend on humans for anything

The message Jesus told his diciples to take to the world was through human agents.
His disciples where human,if I recall.
You need to take up his methods with him.

Provoking people to jealousy sounds like something an immature child would do, rather beneath the creator of the universe. Like so many of the other actions documented in holy texts, it smacks of anthropic projection. So many images like that are another reason I doubt second-hand revelation. I simply can't abide the idea that God is nearly as petty and cruel as often depicted in holy texts. My reverence for deity can't reconcile the two, so I prefer to doubt human-written documents.

Well I understand men are fallible,but God has been getting his message of Christianity out to all the world over centuries through this means of human agents and it has changed the world as we know it.Yes, for the good and for the bad when corrupt men confess they are christians but do as the pharisee's and the sadducees did.
You should meet him and get to know him to understand what his word actually means.
The scirptures interpreted through human intellect is futile ,only through his spirit will one understand the scriptures and there intended meaning.

I'm not convinced God did any of that, because it simply doesn't make sense. The universe to me reflects a rational order, evoking a sensible God, not an irrational one. For example, I don't see how it was as huge a sacrifice as you make it out to be. He was gone less time than a Blockbuster rental, and he got to come back as supreme ruler of the universe. When humans sacrifice something, we LOSE it. When humans pay for their own sin, we suffer eternal torment (according to the texts), not three days appearing to people we knew. This doesn't even address how abhorrent child sacrifice is in the first place. The notion that the creator of the orderly universe would come up with such a bizarre system specifically for humans is far-fetched to my way of thinking.

The gospel was not to be understood by our intellect,not to insult those who are intellectual and not to say that we should'nt use it,but we can only come to the knowledge of God and his word through Jesus Christ by his spirit
1Cr 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Please understand, roli, I say these things to share my perspective, not to attack your beliefs. This is nothing more than why my perspective says that God didn't do anything specifically for me. These are all matters of faith, so I admit up from the strong probability that I am wrong. Such is the nature of faith

From the outside looking in,God won't really appear to be attractive or desirable ,he never really appealed to the known world at large,that's why Christ was crucified by his own brethern,unless he is calling one to himself by his spirit
I appreciate that and do not take this as an attack,but I hear what your saying and where your coming from

[roli]

[

quote=MaddLlama]I still say that if a person realizes that thier actions have concequences, goor or bad, that that is a moral code enough, and they don't need a big book of rules.

I agree then that their conscience is in tack,but to know we have done wrong and there are consequences is one thing ,how we think those wrongs will be appeased is another thing.
By the way ,I must confess that your word choices for the bible are so far off what the word of God actually is.It is a title many give it,but from a position of ignorance only
I thought that at one point ,but now the word of God so comes alive ,it's virtually impossible to actually convey what life and truth is in the word of God.
So much more than balck and white and nice stories

Even if you give people the "Big Book of Things You're Not Supposed to Do", people are going to do it anyway. So, it doesn't make one system of "morality" better than the other.

[/quote]
I totally agree,that is that rebellious streak in all of us,it's human nature to rebel against authority.
Where do morals originate from is another thread,but I BELIEVE it did start within us as God declares the law is written on our hearts.

[MaddLlama]

Originally Posted by roli

I agree then that their conscience is in tack,but to know we have done wrong and there are consequences is one thing ,how we think those wrongs will be appeased is another thing.
By the way ,I must confess that your word choices for the bible are so far off what the word of God actually is.It is a title many give it,but from a position of ignorance only
I thought that at one point ,but now the word of God so comes alive ,it's virtually impossible to actually convey what life and truth is in the word of God.
So much more than balck and white and nice stories
I totally agree,that is that rebellious streak in all of us,it's human nature to rebel against authority.
Where do morals originate from is another thread,but I BELIEVE it did start within us as God declares the law is written on our hearts.

I never said I was specifically referring to the Bible, however you'd be lying if you told me that the Bible doesn't contain a large portion of laws (don't do this, do this, etc). You keep talking about this list of laws that God sent down that he expects people to follow, but I think that's unnecessary. It is far more productive, to me, to have an ideal or several, that can be interpreted for any situation so that you can appropriately judge what the concequences of your actions will be. In my eyes, this is a better method of doing things than having a big book with an index where you can look up what god has to say about some subject, and then that's what you believe. The Bible may not have said index, but there certainly are Christian books out there that index Bible passages in exactly this way.
Having to actively consider your values, and cause and effect in every decision you make gives you greater autonomy than having to think "well, what does god say?".

Do you think that morality is only based on concequence? As in, the only reason people have to be moral is the fear that God may punish them?

[roli]

[

quote=MaddLlama]I never said I was specifically referring to the Bible, however you'd be lying if you told me that the Bible doesn't contain a large portion of laws (don't do this, do this, etc).

It sure does ,but they were brought forth to point people at that time to a way to conduct their indulgent and carnal appetities.
I hear what your saying ,but as far as the bible is concerned ,the law was never intended ,as I said before, to declare or make one righteous,before God.
It was meant more as a means of guidance before Christ came,but when he came he fulfilled the law and those who follow Chrrist and surrender to him ,in him is the fullness of the law met.
Apart from serving him ,the law actually does not bring about the life that we think when we keep it ,it merely shows how sinful we are and that we can't actually keep it and we are therefore left unjustified before a holy God
The law's sole purpose was to point to Christ and show us what sin was
Gal 3:24 was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.
Paul who was raised up under one of the most religious legal minds,Gamaliea was quoted as saying Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

There is so much regarding the law then just looking at from the surface as a bunch of do's and don't's. There is a spiritual understanding that only comes through God's spirit who reveals it.

You keep talking about this list of laws that God sent down that he expects people to follow, but I think that's unnecessary.

As did God and that is why he sent his son,to fulfill the law and the prophets who all pointed to Christ

It is far more productive, to me, to have an ideal or several, that can be interpreted for any situation so that you can appropriately judge what the concequences of your actions will be.

But where you get these ideals is what should be considered,man,society,relative,humanistic,philoso phical mindsets,ideologies from men and their own revealtions.

In my eyes, this is a better method of doing things than having a big book with an index where you can look up what god has to say about some subject, and then that's what you believe.

Again, not to be insulting,but that is a narrow minded view and inaccurate at best.
From the outside looking into Christianity, it appears to many of the unlookers just another faith, leaving many theological issues open for interpretation, personal opinion,criticism,refutation through logic,reason and intellect by the natural mind.
But that is what it only appears as,it is far deeper then the human faculties will enable it to comprehend.
Not that it is indecipherable to humans,but only through the agent of the Holy Spirit of God.
As mystical as that may sound, it is the one and only way God communicates and reveals himself and all other aspects of His kingdom to mankind this day.
Therefore his word,his actions,his methods,his past present and history and all the acts of God are all only understood if the individual has his Holy Spirit residing within.
I can't be any clearer than that,it does'nt mean that God can't use free moral agents,personal experiences,other books and tools and a host of other means in which to reach his people ,but it is all governed by his Spirit and the Spirit's ability to work on individuals.
The real problem is what hinders us from hearing and responding to that small still voice of God.
There are many things in this world that have an appearnace as being from God and masquerades itself as spritiual,being assumed it is from God, but is in fact not.

The Bible may not have said index, but there certainly are Christian books out there that index Bible passages in exactly this way.
Having to actively consider your values, and cause and effect in every decision you make gives you greater autonomy than having to think "well, what does god say?".

Yes ,again, what one's are the real deal and what are just an array of men's thoughts as a culmination of ideas and ideologies assuming they are the things of God

Do you think that morality is only based on concequence? As in, the only reason people have to be moral is the fear that God may punish them

No,I think that consequence is definitily a deterrent and always has been ,not just with the moral law of God but with civil law .
The reason I believe that men try to achieve morality is because it is in their DNA, their nature,their makeup,and when we fail we are determined to try and do better ,because that is how God made us.Sin,lawlessness has twarfed this.
But society paints a very clear picture of how futile our attempts are in a world that is laden with and percipitates immorality through ,peer pressure,intimidation, influence,expectations,greed,selfishness,pride.lus t,rebellion.
Men are moral and goood based on their own standards,call it relative thinking,no a days,but when are objectives are hindered ,by anything or anyone,we see quickly see how our morals one day are reversed the next.

But the problem is ,man tries to be moral in and of themselves and some may be very successful at that,much of it is on their own abilities, through will power,positive thinking,religious practice etc and are therfore forever under the law.

[Makhsihed]

"What has your God done for you???"

The mother of my ka, Bast-Mut, has given me warmth and sunlight during the darkest time of year. When I nearly succumbed to deep seasonal depression this January, I asked my gods for sunlight - I was almost joking, it was an afterthought - and yet I heard "We can do that..." in a soft smiling voice - and warmth, a shaft of unseen sunlight right through the core of me, thawing the internal snow and ice, chasing away the sadness. And again, every time I thought of that moment in the days and weeks afterwards, and I managed to get through the winter in a much better state than in years past.

The father of my ba, Wepwawet-Yinepu... ah, what Dad has done for me! He has exposed issues that I need to deal with but have avoided, pushing me to grow and strengthen. He has given me comfort in dark times, warm jackal-hugs. He has protected me when I've gotten over my head, but let me protect myself when His protection isn't necessary (even if I think I'm over my head; I find myself forced to deal with whatever-it-may-be and find that, to my surprise, I am stronger than I thought and can deal with it!), getting me to exercise my "muscles" as it were, showing me my own strength of mind and will and self. He's shown me the value of play and silliness with the child-wisdom of Him-as-Yinepu; He's shown me the gold in my shadow, and that I need not fear the night (for, as one jackal-child heard him say, he is like the night, and he is everywhere in our darkness to guide and comfort us when we are lost and frightened). He has taught me more of trust - in Him, in others...

And there are others, of course - gods of my religion that I don't interact with as closely as my Parent and Beloved, but who have also done much for me. Set, Great of Strength, who has taught me strength and confidence-in-self and strength-of-self - as chaotic and rocky a learning as that may have been. Djehuty, Architect of Truth, who reminded me that emotion is just as important and valid as logic and reason, and that I needed to balance the two. Hethert, who has shown me something of a quieter sort of strength and security in body. And others...The Netjeru have done much for me.

"Can you know God without knowing his messenger or in the case of the Christian God, his son first"

Of course. My gods don't need messengers; They can speak to Their children more directly should They choose. Sometimes They use messengers or more subtle messages - it depends on the god and what will best get through to the individual.

"I know many believe in a variety of gods out there,but do any of them have someone that you must follow after in order to be saved, redeemed, delivered"

Fortunately, no. I worship and honor my gods out of love and devotion, not out of fear or a need to be "saved" from something. And what do I need to be redeemed or delivered from? This is evangelism-speak. The sort of questions leading up to a conversion attempt*. I spent the first 18 years of my life as a Southern Baptist; my dad's a Southern Baptist pastor; I'm well-acquainted with all the techniques. *heh!*

"I mean did your god send a messenger into the world to help you. One that you must accept"

What need have my gods for messengers when They can speak to me on Their own? They use messengers when need be to get a point across, but not the sort of "savior-messenger" you seem to be talking about.

"or has your god said, your ok, you can do it on your own, just find yourself, relax, meditate, become one with your universe and you will find completeness."

Not that either. My gods walk with me. They want me to strive to be the best I can, to fulfill my potential, to help others fulfill theirs; They support me when I cannot walk on my own, They guard me when I cannot guard myself, but They do not shelter me from everything. That wouldn't be much love at all; that wouldn't help me grow.

I don't have to "do it on my own", but They're not going to do it for me. My religion is not easy, and it's not for the lazy. My gods wield clue-by-fours for the particularly thick-headed, but They also offer comforting warmth; my gods push me to excel and aren't sympathetic to whining, but They lift my spirits when I get discouraged, and bring sunlight to thaw my winters. They encourage personal growth. Wepwawet opens the ways of my heart and opens all those dusty closets, forcing me to deal with issues that I've ignored or put off; this pushes me to greater fullness, greater completeness.

"Has your God given you hope."

Hope, and strength, and greater self-confidence, and so many things. Zep-Tepi, for instance, the First Time: Every day is a new day, you can begin anew each day, each month, each year. My gods don't hold grudges.

"Has he given you answers to life's purpose, origin, destination"

Given me answers? Are you kidding? That would cheat me of the effort for myself.

*EDIT: And perhaps I should have read the last two pages of the thread before posting! Because theeere's the conversion attempt. Right. Why am I not surprised?

[athanasius]

What has your God done for you???

alot! Saved me(By the Cross) from eternal death, gives me himself(In the eucharist) Delivered me from a hard core addiction! Took my mother home, gave me a bride and formed her into the perfect wife. Helped me get through school so far and remain faithful. gave me his calling as a adopted Son. Gave me great Priest(spiritual directors) to talk with. Gave me his Mother(Rev 12:17). Gives me the church universal he founded as a guide to all truth(1 tim 3:15). Gives me life!