Is belief in a Creator rational? (Earth, beliefs, choice, creation)

[SoulSearcher]

No because there isn't proof of one.

[YmirGF]

Belief in an "invisible friend" is not in itself irrational. Insisting on the reality of that "invisible friend" to others IS a tiny bit irrational. Belief or disbelief in a "creator" does not impact on Reality in the slightest although it does significantly impact on the believer's/unbeliever’s experiences or perception of reality.

[SoulSearcher]

I thought seeing is proof, isn't that what reality is? What we use with our senses? In reality, God can not be found but maybe I just don't understand your rationalization.

[YmirGF]

Originally Posted by SoulSearcher

I thought seeing is proof, isn't that what reality is? What we use with our senses? In reality, God can not be found but maybe I just don't understand your rationalization.

*giggles*

Eye-witness accounts: A building explodes. 10 people are interviewed and the results show 10 differing accounts.

A mirage: You are out in the desert and see a mirage. Is the mirage real or just an optical illusion? You can see it after all. What if you don't understand what an optical illusion is?

Hallucination: You are ill and given a medication which produces wild hallucinations. You see those hallucination, but are they real? (Hopefully not.)

A movie: You are in a theatre watching a wonderful adventure movie of some kind. Your senses are reeling from all the sensory input. You develop a bond of a sorts with the characters. One character falls off a cliff and the camera angle follows them causing a sensation of vertigo. Is the sensation real or is it the result of manipulating the physical senses for a desired effect? You are sitting in a chair munching popcorn, after all. You are not falling, but your senses will momentarily mimic the feeling that you are. Your senses, in effect, are lying to you, lol.

Life: You are a woman walking home late at night. Someone is walking 20 paces behind you. You fear the worst and THINK you are being followed. After a time you look around and see the person is no longer there. Was your perception real or was it the result of an overactive imagination that, in turn, manipulated your physical senses?

Does that help?

My point is BELIEVING in god is perfectly fine. INSISTING that god is real because folks BELIEVE it IS, does not in fact, make god real. To date, no one has ever produced conclusive evidence of "god". That would indicate that there is no god, however, it doesn't mean that one day evidence may not be discovered that would dispel the myths.

[astarath]

Originally Posted by SoulSearcher

I thought seeing is proof, isn't that what reality is? What we use with our senses? In reality, God can not be found but maybe I just don't understand your rationalization.

What truly counts as reality, I think you touch on it but have limited to the matter of sight. Each of observe reality based off of our personal perceptions. You see raving lunatics giving up their lives to a creator you can't perceive. They see someone whose senses are not yet developed or open to the creator and as thus cant perceive his glory.

[SoulSearcher]

*chuckles
Pretty good explanation, that's why I'm here. Thank you, it did shed some light!

[roli]

[quote]

Originally Posted by Buttercup

I've heard this same argument used to define a Creator for years. Unfortunately...the only thing this line of thinking points to is the fact that we don't know. It's not a definite conclusion of anything.

On the contrary,we can know him if we choose,it's really not up to specualtion,assumptions ,popular opinion,it really is up to the individual.
It's not that we don't know,but what if we could know?,are people afraid that if it is possible they are afraid of what will be expected of them and what they will have to change.
Hbr 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Jer 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find [me], when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
Pro 8:17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
Jer 33:3 Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and shew thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.
Jhn 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Jhn 16:13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you.All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you.
I don't know to what extent you have actually called on God and sought him with your whole heart ,but God can be found and he does speak to those who come to him.
I have been a Christian 10 yrs and if it was just a one sided experience and an intellectual assent to some spiritual and religious plateau where I never communicated to or heard God talk with me,never felt his presence I would have left this in the dust.

Let's side with the faulty argument and say it does lead to a Creator. The next question I have is how could we know anything about this Creator who remains silent?

There are many God is not silent to,but that is for the individual to find out
There are those who God won't speak to,the question is why?
Pro 1:28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find meFor that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
Psa 18:41They cried, but [there was] none to save [them: even] unto the LORD, but he answered them not
Isa 1:15And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
Eze 8:18Therefore will I also deal in fury: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, [yet] will I not hear them.
Pro 11:20 They that are of a froward heart [are] abomination to the LORD: but [such as are] upright in [their] way [are] his delight.

Pro 12:22 Lying lips [are] abomination to the LORD: but they that deal truly [are] his delight.
Pro 15:8 The sacrifice of the wicked [is] an abomination to the LORD: but the prayer of the upright [is] his delight.

Pro 15:9 The way of the wicked [is] an abomination unto the LORD: but he loveth him that followeth after righteousness.

Pro 15:26 The thoughts of the wicked [are] an abomination to the LORD: but [the words] of the pure [are] pleasant words.

Pro 16:5 Every one [that is] proud in heart [is] an abomination to the LORD: [though] hand [join] in hand, he shall not be unpunished.
Pro 21:27The sacrifice of the wicked [is] abomination: how much more, [when] he bringeth it with a wicked mind?
Pro 28:9 He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer [shall be] abomination.
Pro 3:32 For the forward [is] abomination to the LORD: but his secret [is] with the righteous.

And then you'll say...."Well, he's written a great and holy book telling you everything you need to know!". My next comment will be, "Oh really? Which one?"[/quote

Start with the one that says, in the beginning God created.
Believe in my word and you will know the truth and the truth will make your free
We think that we need proof for God ,yet we live in a life where we take everything for granted and have to trust and have faith in things in our daily lives that we should really be ashamed of because we never truly varified them.
Yet ironic when it comes to God who says he frogives sins and grants everlasting life to those who will believe him,we question and refute continous,it's quite funny.
It goes something like this ,I trust the mail system,the cook at the restaurant I have never met,the pilot I have never seen,the banker who I can't vouch for and the person next to me ,because I just can't possibly know whether they well pull out a gun and shoot me.We trust our employer who could go bankrupt any moment,It's funny we never fully investigate, evaluate and gather all the proof of their reliability but with God,it's all the world has been doing for centuries
We are forced to trust and have faith in things we implement in our daily lives ,because it's just not practical to analyse,evaluate and look for emperical evidence to prove everything is on the up and up
But the thing is,if you go into this pursuit of God with the intention to disprove him you will not find him or the truth of his word.
The words you read in the bible will fall on deaf ears.
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them
If one opens their heart,God will accept those who are broken in spirit and repentitive
Psa 34:18The Lord is close to the brokenhearted; he rescues those who are crushed in spirit.
Psa 51:17The sacrifice you want is a broken spirit. A broken and repentant heart, O God, you will not despise.

[roli]

Originally Posted by astarath

What truly counts as reality, I think you touch on it but have limited to the matter of sight. Each of observe reality based off of our personal perceptions. You see raving lunatics giving up their lives to a creator you can't perceive. They see someone whose senses are not yet developed or open to the creator and as thus cant perceive his glory.

You also see everyone of us placing are entire lives,finances,families,children,etc.etc. etc. daily in people we can't varify,prove or accurately evaluate.
We actually have no confidence or assurance today in the financial institues,schools,government,our neighbors, water or food ,yet we trust them or at least live as though we do.We question them of course,but we can never actually know absolutely they are truthful,we take it all for granted.We tust and have faith in the system.
Not one of us can actually say,they can be proven to be reliable,we just don't have the means or the time to fully investigate every aspect of life to varify it's authenticity.
By rights we should because in actuality they have been shown to be dishonest and unreliable in the past
By your own admission,we are all lunatics,for trusting in people and things on a daily basis.
But when it comes to God ,you say that is different and we are foolish and unrealistic to even consider the existence of God,because we have no proof.

[roli]

Originally Posted by YmirGF

*giggles*

My point is BELIEVING in god is perfectly fine. INSISTING that god is real because folks BELIEVE it IS, does not in fact, make god real. To date, no one has ever produced conclusive evidence of "god". That would indicate that there is no god, however, it doesn't mean that one day evidence may not be discovered that would dispel the myths.

Do you have evidence and full assurance that your money is safe and secure in the bank,
Look at the creation sun,moon ,stars,gravity,hydological cycle,vegatation, air and telll me man designed that or that science created it all.
We only discover what already exists,that is the process of science ,science = knowledge,not creative power.
That's absurd,look at painting and common sense tells you of a painter's existence
The bible says ,
Rom 1:20 - 21Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.
From the time the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky and all that God made. They can clearly see his invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God.

[roli]

Originally Posted by YmirGF

*giggles*

My point is BELIEVING in god is perfectly fine. INSISTING that god is real because folks BELIEVE it IS, does not in fact, make god real. To date, no one has ever produced conclusive evidence of "god". That would indicate that there is no god, however, it doesn't mean that one day evidence may not be discovered that would dispel the myths.

Do you have evidence and full assurance that your money is safe and secure in the bank,that your food is safe, your job is secure.
Look at the creation sun,moon ,stars,gravity,hydological cycle,vegatation, air and telll me man designed that or that science created it all.
We only discover what already exists,that is the process of science ,science = knowledge,not creative power.
That's absurd,look at painting and common sense tells you of a painter's existence
The bible says ,
Rom 1:20 - 21Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.
From the time the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky and all that God made. They can clearly see his invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God.