Belief by choice (Jesus Christ, ritual, salvation, preach, atheist)

[Willamena]

Whenever I read threads about Christianity I am continually hung up on certain points, and I'd like to address one of them, that being John 14:9-14.

Many Christians quote John 14 as being evidence that Jesus is God (read literally) and that only through belief in him will people "be saved." The implication is that people must choose to believe.

But can people choose to believe? Is that possible?

Belief happens despite us, in the unconscious part of our mind. It is what we base many of our conscious decisions on, and can be over-ridden by logic and choice. But how can someone choose to believe in something, especially something that they have no foundation upon which to believe? (And no... words in a book isn't enough for some people.)

[Phil]

Faith is a gift from God. God changes the stoney heart, gives a hearing ear and seeing eye. It has to first come from God. The natural man can not receive the things of God.

[Katzpur]

It's so funny you'd ask that right now, Willamena. Jonny and I were just talking about that on another thread. And just about five weeks ago, I started a thread called "Choosing to believe." (You know what they say about great minds, don't you?)

Anyway, here's what I said in my first post: With respect to things of a spiritual nature (such a the existence of God or the validity of a particular belief system), is it possible to will oneself to believe? I don't think it is. I couldn't will myself to be an atheist, no matter what the negative ramifications of my being a theist might be. Logically, then, I don't believe it is possible for an atheist to simply will himself to believe.

On the other hand, the Bible teaches that a belief in Jesus Christ is essential to salvation. Would God require something of us that is impossible?

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Willamena

But can people choose to believe? Is that possible?

Yes. To believe, to have faith in something, is to trust something. I can make a conscious choice to choose to put my trust in something. I choose to trust the God I know in Christ.

luna

[Phil]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Yes. To believe, to have faith in something, is to trust something. I can make a conscious choice to choose to put my trust in something. I choose to trust the God I know in Christ.

luna

But who gets credit for you trusting in Christ? You should be thanking God that you put your trust in Him, for it is God who gave that gift to you.

1 Cor 2:14
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Phil

But who gets credit for you trusting in Christ? You should be thanking God that you put your trust in Him, for it is God who gave that gift to you.

1 Cor 2:14
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Please do not preach to me. Do not assume that you should tell me this.

[Booko]

Originally Posted by Willamena

Belief happens despite us, in the unconscious part of our mind. It is what we base many of our conscious decisions on, and can be over-ridden by logic and choice. But how can someone choose to believe in something, especially something that they have no foundation upon which to believe? (And no... words in a book isn't enough for some people.)

This describes my life thus far.

If I chose anything, it was that I chose to look at something, consider something, read about something. I may have chosen to be open- rather than closed-minded about it. (Some might say rather that I chose to be gullible or naive or willful.)

But I never felt like the belief itself is something I chose. That's true when I became an atheist, and was true again when I became a theist.

[niceguy]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

On the other hand, the Bible teaches that a belief in Jesus Christ is essential to salvation. Would God require something of us that is impossible?

Maybe it's like you are inside a dark room (due to a powercut) and you cannot see anything . I grew up in a house with flouresent lightswitchs, I just had to look for that faint light and I knew exactly where the door was since the lightswitch was just next to it. Then we have those that know that there is a door but not where to find it so they carefully search the walls until they do. Some people dosen't care about the dark and just sit and wait for the power to return since they find no need to leave the room. Then finally we have those that panic, thease ar the people that have no fiath to comfort them and are afraid of the dark.

[nutshell]

Originally Posted by Willamena

Whenever I read threads about Christianity I am continually hung up on certain points, and I'd like to address one of them, that being John 14:9-14.

Many Christians quote John 14 as being evidence that Jesus is God (read literally) and that only through belief in him will people "be saved." The implication is that people must choose to believe.

But can people choose to believe? Is that possible?

Belief happens despite us, in the unconscious part of our mind. It is what we base many of our conscious decisions on, and can be over-ridden by logic and choice. But how can someone choose to believe in something, especially something that they have no foundation upon which to believe? (And no... words in a book isn't enough for some people.)

Not everyone is a behavioralist.

[PureX]

There is a difference between matters of faith, and matters of truth. The fact that gravity has been in effect on Earth every day that I have lived is a matter of truth, to me. So, when I trust that gravity will be in effect on Earth tomorrow, that's an assumption I've chosen to hold based on apparent truth. It would be difficult for me to choose not to hold this assumption given the experiences I have as corroborating evidence (my entire life, and all I've been taught about science and history).

However, gravity is an objective physical phenomena. I can experience it, and test it, and know that others can experience and test it as well. "God" is not an objective physical phenomena. "God" is an ideal. And as such it can't be tested and shared in an objective way. So any assumption that I choose to hold about "God" will not be based on apparent truth, because there is no apparent objective proof for the existence or nature of "God". So my chosen assumptions about "God" must be based on something else besides truth. And for me that something else is basically desire.

I choose to believe in God because I desire that God exists. I choose not to define God any more than to say that God is "love expressed" because that's all the more definition for God I can rationally justify.

I guess what I'm saying is that experience and logic can only take us so far in our understanding of existence. And after that, we have to make our choices based on desire, and on the effect these choices have on our lives. "God" is one of those concepts that requires more proof than we will be able to acquire as human beings, and so our beliefs regarding the nature and existence of God must rest on the latter: on our desire to believe and on the effect that belief has on us as human beings.