Omniscience (reject, choices, choice, creation, experience)

[Sola'lor]

Willamena, I obviously must not be expressing myself clearly enough. Perhaps our definitions of fate are slightly different. I wish I could express myslef better but what I am thinking of, having free will and a timeline makes perfect sense. Maybe I need to expand my vocabulary.

Perhaps you could explain to me how knowing future event will happen, forces those people involved to make those certain actions.

[Sola'lor]

Originally Posted by methylatedghosts

I have always said that for me, god doesn't know what I WILL do, but knows all my possible futures all at the same time. It's like a "make your own story" book, where you have choices at the end of every page. All of your possible outcomes exist in the book, and the book "knows" all of them. Now just add an infinite amount of pages and an infinite amount of outcomes, and god knows all of them. hope that makes sense.

I agree with you to a degree. But a few years ago I would have agreed with you completely. We have similar views exept I believe God knows which of those choices everyone will make. But His knoweledge of of that doesn't stop you from making those choices.

[emiliano]

Originally Posted by Francine

Absolute knowledge and absolute power are mutually contradictory. Once an event is sampled and recorded, it cannot be changed. To change a previously known outcome means it wasn't really known. The inability to change a thing reduces power to nothing. Omnipotence can only act where omniscience does not look. Omniscience can only look where omnipotence does not act. Limiting foresight is a condition for granting human free will. By averting His gaze, God carves out a space for men to freely act. This achievement allows created beings to respond to God meaningfully.

There are good resources in the, in the internet that can give an answer in: Internet Encyclopaedia of philosophy
The theory of middle knowledge presents a picture of divine omniscience which includes not only knowledge of the past, present and future, but also knowledge of conditional future contingents (propositions which refer to how free creatures will choose in various circumstances), counterfactuals (propositions which refer to how things would actually be if circumstances were different than they are or will be), and counterfactuals of creaturely freedom (propositions which refer to what a free creature would have chosen (freely) to do if things had been different). This knowledge, together with natural knowledge, informs God's decision about what He will do with reference to creation.
Middle Knowledge [Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy]

[harleydavidson]

to francine ,,re. your post of 12/3. I have to stick to the point you are making that god can not know the future. I believe he can ,and there is no obstruction to this knowledge.We are the ones traveling thru time,not god .Now this may be a new concept to you,but god exists outside of time.Lets consider this,there are only two possibilities ,,either god exists IN time ,or OUTSIDE of it.If we prove god can not exist in time then the other possibility is true , he is outside of time.Now the question is ,is existing in time a perfection or an imperfection. If one is in time ,he is subject to it.god is subject to no one ,and no thing. If one is subject to past ,present and future,the a being is better in the present than the past.E.G. If you read a book ,,you are better off after you have read the book,than before,you have gained something from the book.God can not be better off in the present than he was in the past ,,god does not change. soooo god can not be subject to time. Now going back if god is not subject to time ,,he must be outside of time,,ergo the proof.How then does god exist?,he is in an eternal present,and as such he sees our past ,present and future all at once. He therefore knows our future,he knows what we will do freely.....harley davidson,,,

[Francine]

Originally Posted by harleydavidson

Now going back if god is not subject to time ,,he must be outside of time,,ergo the proof.How then does god exist?,he is in an eternal present,and as such he sees our past ,present and future all at once. He therefore knows our future,he knows what we will do freely.

Take one single person. If the past exists, then that person is like a series of beads that is added to a piece of wire from each moment to the next (and a time machine would let you go back to visit an earlier bead). If the past does not exist, then the person is just a single bead, by himself. Both those cases allow the person to have free will. But if the future exists, then the whole chain of beads that is a person exists already, from birth to death, and all the decisions that person makes (represented by bends in the chain of beads) is already there. And free will does not exist, because the future of that person is as immobile as his past.

[stephenw]

Originally Posted by harleydavidson

to francine ,,re. your post of 12/3. I have to stick to the point you are making that god can not know the future. I believe he can ,and there is no obstruction to this knowledge.We are the ones traveling thru time,not god .Now this may be a new concept to you,but god exists outside of time.Lets consider this,there are only two possibilities ,,either god exists IN time ,or OUTSIDE of it.If we prove god can not exist in time then the other possibility is true , he is outside of time.Now the question is ,is existing in time a perfection or an imperfection. If one is in time ,he is subject to it.god is subject to no one ,and no thing. If one is subject to past ,present and future,the a being is better in the present than the past.E.G. If you read a book ,,you are better off after you have read the book,than before,you have gained something from the book.God can not be better off in the present than he was in the past ,,god does not change. soooo god can not be subject to time. Now going back if god is not subject to time ,,he must be outside of time,,ergo the proof.How then does god exist?,he is in an eternal present,and as such he sees our past ,present and future all at once. He therefore knows our future,he knows what we will do freely.....harley davidson,,,

Couldn't God be in time, in the sense an artist is in their painting,or maybe better, the way a singer is in their song, and also outside it?

[kadzbiz]

I was under the impression that time is of no relevance to God. He exists at all times simultaneously.

[Wandered Off]

Originally Posted by Sola'lor

Once I make a choice it can never be changed.

What I think you are getting at is that in this existence, we can have only one outcome for any given decision. Choices may have existed, but there is only one actually chosen.

The existence of only one final outcome is not contrary to free will. What would be contrary is if the outcome exists already somewhere. If it already exists, then you can't alter it - which is incompatible with free will. Francine used a good analogy in #25.

You said originally that the future is "already there", which I find contrary to free will, not the mere fact that physics make us incapable of multiple decisions for a single choice.

[Sola'lor]

Take one single person. If the past exists, then that person is like a series of beads that is added to a piece of wire from each moment to the next (and a time machine would let you go back to visit an earlier bead). If the past does not exist, then the person is just a single bead, by himself. Both those cases allow the person to have free will. But if the future exists, then the whole chain of beads that is a person exists already, from birth to death, and all the decisions that person makes (represented by bends in the chain of beads) is already there. And free will does not exist, because the future of that person is as immobile as his past.

Not exactly. Only the decisions that a person would choose would be the beads on the wire. They would only be on the wire because those choices that a persone doesn't, or won't, make are irrelevant. They are irrelevant because the person would never have made those choices. This isn't eliminating free will it's simply only showing the choices that a person will make.

Originally Posted by Wandered Off

What I think you are getting at is that in this existence, we can have only one outcome for any given decision. Choices may have existed, but there is only one actually chosen.

Yes this is exactly my point. I'm glad I could at least express this much. Now just extend this concept into the future. Choices will exist but only one will actually be chosen.

The existence of only one final outcome is not contrary to free will. What would be contrary is if the outcome exists already somewhere. If it already exists, then you can't alter it - which is incompatible with free will. Francine used a good analogy in #25.

You said originally that the future is "already there", which I find contrary to free will, not the mere fact that physics make us incapable of multiple decisions for a single choice.

What I mean by the futrure already being there is that the future already exists on the timeline. Our present is only right here and right now. It will always be right now. Eventually our present will reach the future and our future will become our past. So while not at this moment. Our future is already somebodies past, even though we haven't reached it yet. So in realationship to the peresent the future is the same as the past. The only difference between the future and the past is their relationship to the present.

Sorry if none of that made any sense I was just sort of rambling.