Omniscience (reject, choices, choice, creation, experience)

[stephenw]

Originally Posted by Wandered Off

Which would make free will an illusion.

I think it is an illusion in an empirical sense. I don't think it is in a transcendental sense.

[Buttercup]

Originally Posted by Francine

Limiting foresight is a condition for granting human free will. By averting His gaze, God carves out a space for men to freely act. This achievement allows created beings to respond to God meaningfully.

So, God doesn't know who will listen to him until we die and pass on into another dimension?

[Wandered Off]

Originally Posted by stephenw

I think it is an illusion in an empirical sense. I don't think it is in a transcendental sense.

I think the same could be said for omniscience.

The rub is, I'm not really sure what that would mean either...

[stephenw]

Originally Posted by Wandered Off

I think the same could be said for omniscience.

Maybe, but I don't think so because freewill belongs to our perspective of reality, omniscience does not.

[Sola'lor]

Originally Posted by Wandered Off

Which would make free will an illusion.

No. Because we will always choose what we are going to choose. There are alternative choices we simply do not choose them. Let's say I choos eto pick up this pencil on my desk.Even from the beginning of time I was going to choose to pcik up this pencil. Before I was born I was going to pick it up. It's not that I was forced to pick it up. It's simply that I was going to choose to pick it up. Once I make a choice it can never be changed. This is where I have trouble explaining it. I understand it clearly and it makes perfect sense it's just hard to convey.

[Willamena]

Originally Posted by Sola'lor

No. Because we will always choose what we are going to choose. There are alternative choices we simply do not choose them. Let's say I choos eto pick up this pencil on my desk.Even from the beginning of time I was going to choose to pcik up this pencil. Before I was born I was going to pick it up.

That's not free will. That's fate.

[Sola'lor]

Originally Posted by Willamena

That's not free will. That's fate.

Not really. Fate is something determining that you will do what you will do in the future.


What I'm taling about is say four years ago you never would have known you were going to reply to me. But you did. Not because you wree guided by some external force. But because you chose to. Even though you hadn't chosen to do it back then you were still going to choose it. Not because you had to or because you were meant to. You did it because you chose to.

Let me try and explain it a different way. Lets look at this irrespective of time. Pretend we are ina zone that doesn't have time. Now we look at the earth. We see all of earth's timeline, or history, from start to end. Everybodies choices. It's all there right in front of us. W elook at it and it appears complete. All the choices have already been made all the outcomes have already happened. Everybodiy's free will is exercised and we see it all. To us we se it as if it has already happened. Now to us this is simply the timeline. There is not future, present, or past. It's all there. Now there is a small little blip traveling along the time line. This is what everybody calls the present. Behind the blip is the past. Choices that everyone has made. infront of the blip is what we call the future. The blip is travelling across the timeline toward the future leaving more past behind. Yes the people have free will they can choose what they want but we can see what they will choose and what the outcomes will be. Our knowledge of this doesn't force them to make certain choices we can simply see what they will choose. This is what I see when I think of time.

Our little blip that was call the present is moving throught time. The future is simply the past that we haven't gotten to yet. The future is also the present that we haven't gotten to yet. The future is mad eup of the things that we haven't chosen yet. But we will choose them. Hopefully that expressed what I mean a little better.

[Willamena]

Originally Posted by Sola'lor

Not really. Fate is something determining that you will do what you will do in the future.

Today is yesterday's future.

Originally Posted by Sola'lor

Even though you hadn't chosen to do it back then you were still going to choose it.

Still sounding like fate to me.

Originally Posted by Sola'lor

Not because you had to or because you were meant to. You did it because you chose to.

But, as you said, I was "going to" anyway.

Originally Posted by Sola'lor

We look at it and it appears complete. All the choices have already been made all the outcomes have already happened... the people have free will they can choose what they want but we can see what they will choose and what the outcomes will be.

Shouldn't that be, "we can see what they have chosen," since the choices are already complete, already made from our objective point of view? If all the choices that can ever be have already been made from our point of view, then what other choice do these people ever have but to follow the fixed "timeline" that we see? Does that sound like free will? I think not.

Originally Posted by Sola'lor

Our knowledge of this doesn't force them to make certain choices we can simply see what they will choose.

It doesn't force them to make choices, right, but this perspective does deny free will, because if there was true free will there would be no fixed "timeline" for us to see from this perspective. The "timeline" would be fluid and unpredictable.

From our point of view, it's a different matter. There we find free will. From the universal point of view that has a fixed "timeline" there can be no free will.

Originally Posted by Sola'lor

The future is mad eup of the things that we haven't chosen yet. But we will choose them. Hopefully that expressed what I mean a little better.

Still sounding like fate to me.

[kadzbiz]

Originally Posted by Francine