Tao nature, and human nature. (ritual, experience, spiritual, verse)

[cfer]

I like the distinction, MV, that we are more out of balance than against Tao. Because, as you point out, if all is Tao, it is hard to be against it.

[ChrisP]

Unsure how to describe what I'm thinking about the OP M_V.

I think humanity as whole has forgotten it's role. If we ARE part of the Tao, to perform our function we should do what comes naturally to us. As part of our environment, we seem to be the only ones with the ability to protect and nurture.

Not many would accept this as humanity's role on our planet any more, we are beholden only to ourselves. Attempting to severe ourselves from who we are, we unbalance not only ourselves but our environs.

Creating "new" things for our amusements

What drives a man and a woman? the need to procreate? Some would say so, but what are we driven to do with our progeny. Parents are driven to nurture and protect.

Allowing things to create themselves, helping when the can't, protecting them when they are weak, teaching them how best to achieve what they are, learning from them when they exceed our experiences. This is what we are meant for. We are the watchers, the keepers from harm, the teacher and the student.

[Scarlett Wampus]

If we take it to be true that there is some way of going about things that becomes clear to us if we 'uncondition' ourselves, i.e. the diminish rather than accumulate thing, then drawing on the water analogy we could be lost in a muddy streams that need to settle. The feeling of being out of touch with the source (can't see the water for the mud!) can make us thrash about just making matters worse when what we really need to be still and let the stream wash through by itself.

Hmm, maybe I'm taking the stream thing too literally. It does seem to me that we're all quite shook up though, disturbed in some way that is unnecessary and find it difficult to calm down.

[Master Vigil]

Originally Posted by Scarlett Wampus

If we take it to be true that there is some way of going about things that becomes clear to us if we 'uncondition' ourselves, i.e. the diminish rather than accumulate thing, then drawing on the water analogy we could be lost in a muddy streams that need to settle. The feeling of being out of touch with the source (can't see the water for the mud!) can make us thrash about just making matters worse when what we really need to be still and let the stream wash through by itself.

Hmm, maybe I'm taking the stream thing too literally. It does seem to me that we're all quite shook up though, disturbed in some way that is unnecessary and find it difficult to calm down.

I think you you're using the stream analogy quite well. Great post!

[FFH]

Originally Posted by Master Vigil

Wouldn't our "god-given" free will be a part of those "natural laws"? And thus actually not going against the flow of nature? Since all things are Tao, even our idea of free will is a part of it.

I think our free will can be checked by natural laws. So yes, I see exactly what you are saying. Just as there are checks and balances in nature, so there are checks and balances to mans free will. We are free to do what we want, but not free from the affects or our actions.