Tao nature, and human nature. (ritual, experience, spiritual, verse)

[FFH]

I like this thread, and the questions you have posed. I feel I have a unique view on this, maybe that few have considered before, but am not sure if it would be appropriate to post here.

[Scarlett Wampus]

Wow! Er, yeh! Major issue in Taoism.

It seems crazy that anything can go against Tao, yet who feels as though they haven't lost touch with the source?

Some see Taoism as a luddite philosophy because both Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu nostalgically mention a bygone age, yet both also advocate adaptability to change and peaceful acceptance of circumstances, so is that what we've lost? If I understand them correctly they point to such things as society's fondness for artifice, idealistic interference, inauthenticity and pretentious pride as contrary to the Tao and the root of our existential angst. Chuang Tzu even seems to predict the environmental catastrophes we would bring on ourselves if we continued this way (fascinating passage, I'll quote it if anyone's interested).

[Scarlett Wampus]

Originally Posted by FFH

I like this thread, and the questions you have posed. I feel I have a unique view on this, maybe that few have considered before, but am not sure if it would be appropriate to post here.

If it concerns God that will likely seem strange to a Taoist. Whatever the case we are all in this together so we should share what we see.

[FFH]

Originally Posted by Scarlett Wampus

Chuang Tzu even seems to predict the environmental catastrophes we would bring on ourselves if we continued this way (fascinating passage, I'll quote it if anyone's interested).

I am interested in this quote.

[Scarlett Wampus]

Ok I'll type up the passage. As with all translations the meaning of certain words has to be considered carefully since the english equivalent may not convey the original meaning so well. Of particular importance to this passage is what Chuang Tzu means by 'knowledge'. Anyway, I always feel sad reading this...

"When superiors are genuinely fond of knowledge but lack the Way [Tao], all under heaven will be in great confusion. How do we know this is so? The more knowledge there is of bows, crossbows, hand-nets, stringed arrows, and snares, the more the birds in the sky are thrown into confusion. The more knowledge there is of hooks, baits, nets, throw-nets, pull-nets, and basket traps, the more the fish in the water below are thrown into confusion. The more knowledge there is of palings, pitfalls, rabbit nets, and gins, the more the animals of the marshes are thrown into confusion. The more varieties of cunning, deception, slipperiness, talk of "black and white", prevarication, claims of "identical" and "different" there are, the more the common people will be deluded by disputation.

Therefore, whenever all under heaven is in great confusion, the fault lies in fondness of knowledge. Thus, all men under heaven know how to seek what they do not have, but no one knows how to seek what he already has. All men know how to let go of what they consider to be bad, but no one knows how to let go of what they consider to be good, and so there is great confusion. Thus, they rebel against the brightness of the sun and moon above, consume the essence of the mountains and rivers below, and disrupt the procession of the four seasons in between. From wriggling insects to the tiniest flying creatures, there are none that would not lose their natures."

[FFH]

Originally Posted by Scarlett Wampus

If it concerns God that will likely seem strange to a Taoist. Whatever the case we are all in this together so we should share what we see.

Disclaimer: This may be moved to another room, if anyone sees fit to do so. I realize my views may not be in harmony with this room.

Man can choose to go against the flow of nature, or everything that is in, and on the earth, which was set in motion by a creator, and there are laws by which nature, or everything in, and on the earth, are governed. The earth, and everything in, and on it, moves, and is governed by the command of a creator, within their respective elements. Even the dust of the earth moves at the command of a creator.

The creator of the universe has basically set the world and the universe in motion, and has put laws in effect, to govern the earth, and the universe. Everything is on an automatic course, which was set in motion by a creator. Everything in, and on, the earth, except man, moves or lives within these boundaries. Man ususally goes against these laws, that govern the earth, and the universe. We have a free will, which allows us to govern our choices, and the creator respects this, and lets us go against the laws of nature, and the universe. There may be immediate, or eventual, bad affects for going against these laws of nature, and the universe, which are governed by a creator. It is possible to destroy ourselves, and our world, by going against these laws. We truly are the only thing on earth, that goes against the flow of nature, and the universe. We do many things against the laws of our creator, who set forth these laws and put the earth in motion. We need to be aware of these laws and act responsibly. We truly are less than the dust of the earth in this respect. We are nothing compared to the rest of nature, and the universe.

Man is less than the dust of the earth, when he goes against the laws of the universe, established by a creator.


Helaman 12: 7-13

7- O how great is the nothingness of the children of men, yea, even they are less than the dust of the earth.

8- For behold, the dust of the earth moveth hither and thither, to the dividing asunder, at the command of our great and everlasting God.

9- Yea, behold at his voice do the hills and the mountains tremble and quake.

10- And by the power of his voice they are broken up, and become smooth, yea, even like unto a valley.

11- Yea, by the power of his voice doth the whole earth shake;

12- Yea, by the power of his voice, do the foundations rock, even to the very center.

13- Yea, and if he say unto the earth---Move---it is moved.

I know this is not a Taoists way of thinking about this, but I could not help but answer this question as to why man does not go with the flow of nature. We rebel against natural laws, set forth by a creator. We have a free will, which allows us to go against nature. We are less than the dust of the earth in this respect. We do not follow the laws of nature, but bring upon ourselves many natural calamities, from diseases to earthquakes. We cause many of these things to happen, because we go against the laws of nature, that a creator has established to rule, or govern the universe, and everything in it.

When we obey the laws that govern the universe, we will then be in harmony with our creator, and everything that he has created. It is simply our choice.

[Master Vigil]

Wouldn't our "god-given" free will be a part of those "natural laws"? And thus actually not going against the flow of nature? Since all things are Tao, even our idea of free will is a part of it.

[cfer]

Originally Posted by Fra.Morelia

What I mean is rabbits will do the happy and spawn until they eat everything in sight. Unless something eats them.

But rabbits will get to a point of equilibrium eventually. The strongest and most hearty will survive while the sick, the young, and the weak will die off. The food will grow again, and it will come to a state of balance, even if nothing else is around to eat them.

Sorry about the above. I hadn't read the second page of the thread yet.

MV, I think you're correct in saying that free will is part of Tao. But I also agree with FFH that man has gone against the natrual laws of the universe. How many times have people drove when really tired, only to use free will to override their natural inclination of getting some sleep?

We eat when we're not hungry, because we crave a taste and we want to satisfy the desire.

We grow and expand our world, leaving less and less for the other inhabitants of this earth, killing some of the species off in the process.

Is that Tao? Natural extinction, such as what happened to the dinosaurs is one thing. But is man-caused deforestation an imbalance of Tao? Are we not imbalanced within ourselves and our surroundings because of our free will?

Or am I not understanding the thread entirely?

[Master Vigil]

Perhaps it is a matter of finding balance within the natural "flow of nature." We see that the flow of nature has a duality to it. Perhaps our problem is we too often take the extremes, and never the middle road? Which in effect isn't "against Tao" for all things are Tao, but it is against balance. Would that make sense?

[Scarlett Wampus]

cfer sounds about right in my opinion. Volcanoes, meteroites, earthquakes, giant storms, diseases, etc. can all wreak havoc but this is the way of things. We on the other hand have the capacity to be aware of and change what we do. We are bound to a symbiotic relationship with the natural world despite the enormous power 'free choice' gives us. If we do not find peace within ourselves, realise that vital unity, then we use that power to wage unnecessary wars against ourselves, each other, and nature!

FFH read in a certain light there are parallels with Taoist thought in what you wrote. Where things are certainly different is the sense of there strictly being a deity-creator that governs the universe. There is a huge & diverse Taoist pantheon (I know this is different to a one true God), yet this is usually overlooked by most westerners in favour of a naturalistic world view. Most approach the Tao through cultivating healthy virtue with the aid of meditation, Tai Chi, contemplation, well...anything that helps basically

MV makes a lot of sense to me.