The nature of qi versus its effects (scrutiny, mystic, verse)

[Scarlett Wampus]

Apologies for starting a thread then disappearing for a while. I have to manage the 10,000 things nowadays and it slows me right down.

To clarify, its not the effectiveness of Qigong for improving health I'm calling to question. Qigong is fairly reliable as a medicine for many ills. The common theories about how and why it works are unsubstantiated though. For instance, Master Vigil mentioned the meridian system. The meridian system is a vital component in much of Traditional Chinese Medicine including Qigong but nothing that corresponds with the meridian system can be physically found in the body. For sure our bodies have electromagnetic properties and chemical properties but if Qi was directly related to electromagnetic or chemical phenomenon we'd likely have found something substantial about the electromagnetic or chemical nature of Qi that could be measured with appropriate scientific instruments. This hasn't been the case so far; nothing substantial found that would fit typical theories about Qi and certainly nothing resembling the meridian system.

And, um, regarding the clip of blowing out a candle with Qi: shouldn't you be able to do that without waving your arms around to create a strong air current? Where's the Qi part?

Originally Posted by Francine

Kid, I've flown from one side of this world to the other. I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful Chi controlling everything. There's no mystical energy field controls my destiny! It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense.

Impressive, but Han Solo flew across the entire Galaxy before he decided subtle energy didn't control his destiny.

[Troublemane]

this is a great place i tell ya, all the different topics.
Qi is the life-force which mystics and qigong practitioners, as well as yogis, christian charismatics full of the spirit, can all attest. In Taoism it can be the the Te which arises from the Tao, which may relate to virtual particles in quantum field theory arising from the vacuum (i.e., the Void, IAO, Ain Soph, etc.). I theorize we will have a merging of mysticism and science when there is a complete theory of quantum gravitation, because this will include the possibilty of virtual gravitons arising sponteneously, perhaps explaining the underlying mechanism of things like "astral projection" (via the uncertainty principle), action at a distance and related ideas.

[ben d]

Scarlett Wampus

1) Does it matter to you personally whether the nature of qi can't be confirmed through science if qi gong works for you?

2) Does the fact that current theories of qi don't hold up to scrutiny mean that if we did discover why and how qi gong was beneficial we'd be able to formulate more effective qi gong exercises?

3) Do you agree that theories about what qi is and how it works contradict and/or can't be confirmed by science?
__________________

Answers:
1) No
2) No
3) Yes
You could substitute the word 'spiritual force' for 'qi' for those questions and nothing changes.

Thank you Scarlett Wampus for your sharing, but please, those 10,000 things are derived from the Dao so don't over extend, it is the Oneness where the real 'jewel' is...

[Scarlett Wampus]

If I over-extended I'd have to stop altogether rather than just slow down. I'm ok, how are you?

Ben D, do you think spiritual force (or qi/similar) will always be inaccessible to science? If so, why? If not, why?

[ben d]

Hi Scarlett Wampus, OK too I guess, I am just grateful for each day as it comes.
The answer to your question is yes.
The scientific methodologies involve processes that can be verified and explained through existing human language, mathematics, and other fields of learning. Clearly if science is trying to deal with something that is way beyond where it is presently in consciousness, then it will not be in control of the situation and results will not be conducive to analysis through the normal methods.
In other words, it is my understanding that spirit is conscious in a cosmic sense, and the higher can know the lower, but the lower can't know the higher!
Feel free to differ or comment.

[Scarlett Wampus]

Ben D, the idea that science can't know spirit but spirit can know science because its higher up a hierarchy of significance personally makes me feel uncomfortable because I don't like theocracies. Whether or not people are really following spirit in theocracies is debatable but the notion that spirit is higher and unintelligible to science kind of lends itself to religious power structures conveniently being able to dismiss any scientific discovery that doesn't suit them.

Political concerns aside I also I don't think much of hierarchies that put spirit above and beyond the natural world in such a way that suggests different levels of a hierarchy can be essentially irreconcilable and causally unrelated. It doesn't make sense. If I'm to view things in terms of hierarchies I like holarchies (a certain kind of hierarchy) instead. I find them satisfying as models because larger phenomenon (or Holons) have an intrinsic relationship to smaller phenomenon in that they are composed of them. This makes much more sense to me, intuitively and spiritually.

If spirit were higher up a holarchy than science then science might not be able to understand spirit but spirit itself would partly be composed of what science is and does. So, where science couldn't go it couldn't go but claims about spiritual energy that do actually fall within the realm of potential scientific knowledge & investigation would have to be consistent with science. Higher realms of a holarchy do not contradict what is below. For instance, a molecule does not contradict the nature of an atom, it depends upon it.

Because of the above I lean towards not regarding theories of spiritual energy that contradict science to be of much use. Rather, its likely they're simply wrong and we need to re-examine our assumptions & beliefs with the faith that spirit knows what its doing to create doubt in them through the knowledge we've gained through science.

[ben d]

Wampus, first let me say that for each of us, what we say and do in life reflects our present understanding of who and what we are in the bigger scheme of things. Therefore, my response to you will be my present understanding of your present understanding.

Now that that is clear, let us share understanding,...you said..

"Ben D, the idea that science can't know spirit but spirit can know science because its higher up a hierarchy of significance personally makes me feel uncomfortable because I don't like theocracies. Whether or not people are really following spirit in theocracies is debatable but the notion that spirit is higher and unintelligible to science kind of lends itself to religious power structures conveniently being able to dismiss any scientific discovery that doesn't suit them."


If you understand 'a hierarchy of significance' as theocracy, then I essentially agree with your gist. Theocracy is an anthropocentric concept of cosmic divine rule,.. as above, so below,..but in no way does any man created institution truly represent the above in its fullness or have its authority or science (think omniscience). Spirit as source encompasses all, and energy and matter in all of its differentiated forms exists within it. What I mean by a higher cosmic order is not one of being superior to the lower, it contains the lower. The higher cosmic structure of which I speak does not only contain the reality in which mortals live, move, and have their being,.. it is absolute reality. It can not be even imagined by mortal mind. I suppose an analogy would be to see cells of the body as the lower order and the body as a higher order since it is made up of the former. This lower higher dichotomy is to make the distinction between different orders, in this case, the cell kingdom and the human kingdom. And just as a single cell consciousness can not know the human body in which it exists. neither can a human know the Celestial kingdom in which it exists. We can theorize, speculate, imagine, fantasize, etc, create theocracies, religious institutions, cults etc., but the Reality for which we thirst will forever remain beyond the mortal mind including using the tools of science.
However and despite the constraints associated with the state of mortal man, religious teachings reveal that the self conscious spirit incarnated in man has the potential to be reintegrated into the Oneness of universal spirit. This process is called by various names by the various traditions,..being born again, attaining buddhahood, becoming an angel, etc.. But since this subject is not directly addressed in your post, I will move on.
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"Political concerns aside I also I don't think much of hierarchies that put spirit above and beyond the natural world in such a way that suggests different levels of a hierarchy can be essentially irreconcilable and causally unrelated. It doesn't make sense."

I agree with you and I trust what I have written above makes this clear.
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"If I'm to view things in terms of hierarchies I like holarchies <http://www.holon.se/folke/kurs/Distans/Ekofys/Recirk/Eng/holarchy_en.shtml> (a certain kind of hierarchy) instead. I find them satisfying as models because larger phenomenon (or Holons) have an intrinsic relationship to smaller phenomenon in that they are composed of them. This makes much more sense to me, intuitively and spiritually."

Yes, I agree with this too.
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"If spirit were higher up a holarchy than science then science might not be able to understand spirit but spirit itself would partly be composed of what science is and does. So, where science couldn't go it couldn't go but claims about spiritual energy that do actually fall within the realm of potential scientific knowledge & investigation would have to be consistent with science. Higher realms of a holarchy do not contradict what is below. For instance, a molecule does not contradict the nature of an atom, it depends upon it."

Yes, once again I agree with the gist of this. But in the example you use of atoms making up the molecule, due to the molecule being adjacent in the hierarchy or to be more precise the holarchical order, the interaction can be expected to be and is somewhat predictable to science. But between the atom within a molecule, within a cell, within a tissue, within an organ, within a body, and the body, science would be hard pressed to prove definitively that there is interaction between them,.. and so it is between man and higher orders of the holarchy.
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"Because of the above I lean towards not regarding theories of spiritual energy that contradict science to be of much use. Rather, its likely they're simply wrong and we need to re-examine our assumptions & beliefs with the faith that spirit knows what its doing to create doubt in them through the knowledge we've gained through science".


If we consider the holarchy as absolute, thereby putting it beyond mere higher and lower dichotomies, everything that exists is made of its spiritual essence in all of its infinite differentiations and aggregations. Science is merely a methodical enquiry of the nature of those limited range of differentiations that are available to interact with mortal senses and/or the tools he has created to extend this range in order to gain more knowledge of his environment. The vast proportion of the complete range are unavailable as of present, and though there is a lot that science is yet to discover, the bulk will forever be out of reach for mankind. Can you imagine that mortal man armed with the knowledge of science that could exceed that of higher order of the holarchy,.. to command angels, archangels, gods, whatever, to do their will? What chaos there would be in the universe if lower creations like man in their relative state of ignorance could ever get the knowledge to create and destroy stars etc..

Having said that, I do not dismiss the importance of science so far as the wonderful destiny of mortal man is as a generic species. The space age is upon us and despite the many problems ahead, man will certainly play an important cosmic role in solar system and stellar activities, but it will be under the guidance of higher authority. The problems ahead that I refer to are those that will occur to teach mortal man of the existence of higher authority,.. greater humility will be the outcome.
Say you?