Apathy and Wu Wei (moral, mysticism, experience, moral, philosophy)

[Scarlett Wampus]

How is apathy distinguished from Wu Wei?

Seeking for purpose in life is a major theme in much of western culture. Whether its divinely granted, a product of philosophical enquiry or otherwise its generally seen as a key to a meaningful existence. Contentment comes from finding and living out one's purpose.

No doubt this works for many but the classical Taoist philosophers took a different approach. For them contentment was best found not as a result of fulfilling a purpose but from giving it up. Striving to find meaning and achieve things was regarded as a form of confusion that would lead to disharmony and actually prevent the greatest engagement in appropriate & meaningful action.

This has to be one of the hardest things to understand in Taoism. Again, the question I want to ask is how is apathy distinguished from Wu Wei?

[Scarlett Wampus]

Outrageous bump for attention.

[Kungfuzed]

Originally Posted by Scarlett Wampus

How is apathy distinguished from Wu Wei?

Seeking for purpose in life is a major theme in much of western culture. Whether its divinely granted, a product of philosophical enquiry or otherwise its generally seen as a key to a meaningful existence. Contentment comes from finding and living out one's purpose.

No doubt this works for many but the classical Taoist philosophers took a different approach. For them contentment was best found not as a result of fulfilling a purpose but from giving it up. Striving to find meaning and achieve things was regarded as a form of confusion that would lead to disharmony and actually prevent the greatest engagement in appropriate & meaningful action.

This has to be one of the hardest things to understand in Taoism. Again, the question I want to ask is how is apathy distinguished from Wu Wei?

From what you are describing Wu Wei is intentionally not doing what you want. Apathy is just not caring to begin with. Wu Wei sounds more like self denial than apathy.

[Master Vigil]

Wu Wei as I understand it, is a total focus of now. The stream (yeah again with the stream) doesn't worry about where it's going, where it's been, how it's getting where it's going, etc... But it gets there effortlessly.

If we constantly focus on now, and make every now the best it can be. The future will eventually be a "now" and will inevitably be the best it can be. But if you are continually worry about the future, or the past, etc... The future will inevitably be worse because every "now" leading up until that future will have been worse.

Does that make sense? So in answering to your question, Wu Wei is certainly not apathy, or procrastination, or laziness, etc...

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by Scarlett Wampus

How is apathy distinguished from Wu Wei?

Seeking for purpose in life is a major theme in much of western culture. Whether its divinely granted, a product of philosophical enquiry or otherwise its generally seen as a key to a meaningful existence. Contentment comes from finding and living out one's purpose.

No doubt this works for many but the classical Taoist philosophers took a different approach. For them contentment was best found not as a result of fulfilling a purpose but from giving it up. Striving to find meaning and achieve things was regarded as a form of confusion that would lead to disharmony and actually prevent the greatest engagement in appropriate & meaningful action.

This has to be one of the hardest things to understand in Taoism. Again, the question I want to ask is how is apathy distinguished from Wu Wei?

I do not take wu wei to be apathy. What you describe as "giving up purpose" I would describe as "giving up ego." That doesn't mean there is no purpose. The purpose is contentment. harmony.

I am sure you know that wu wei does not mean doing nothing, but rather it means not disturbing. For example, in surfing, the goal is to ride the wave. When it is done well it appears as if the person is "doing nothing," just being carried along by the crest of the wave. And yet we know it's not that easy. If the person does not feel the wave, isn't one with the wave, doesn't follow where the wave leads, he or she will crash. If one doesn't give up ego but rather attempts to drive the wave, one will crash.

wu wei is riding the wave. Apathy is sitting at home when the surf is up.

[Scarlett Wampus]

Originally Posted by lilithu

I do not take wu wei to be apathy. What you describe as "giving up purpose" I would describe as "giving up ego." That doesn't mean there is no purpose. The purpose is contentment. harmony.

Hmm. Perhaps giving up purpose is equivalent to giving up ego but they're different flavours of the same detachment ice-cream. Uh, my metaphors are awful.

But anyway, the thing is I really feel it makes no sense to ascribe purpose to Tao, including contentment and harmony. It just so happens that giving up having the purpose of contentment and harmony tends to make those things more likely. So you see there is a massive difference between our positions.

More verbiage to explain my thinking: Giving something up to gain it, or something thereabouts is a classic Taoist principle and bares some relation to the "invest in loss" technique of Tai Chi Chu'an. Several people I've known who are fascinated by Taoism have either talked about explicitly or employed a kind of technique that strikes a chord with this. They either fell into it by accident or cultivated it over time and namely it involves dissolving purpose, meaning, value, god(s), decision making, etc. in such a way that they sink into the subconscious where they slowly coagulate together in ways that aren't possible by holding them up in the conscious mind.

Hidden from view (obviously this is hypothetical) but nevertheless potentially immanent as intuitive impulses and impressions the Taoist cultivating this way learns to follow (or rather, fall into) the 'mystery' and, with a diminishing sense of control & focus, often finds that their life becomes more and more integrated with deep a sense of meaning and purpose emerging out of that regardless!

A classic outward symptom of this approach is to find that all one's plans, efforts and thoughts go absolutely nowhere (and quickly!) such that it seems like there is nothing but failure (even if one has already chosen to 'drop out'). In fact it can make someone feel very apathetic to begin with! Why bother, hmm? But when one looks back at what has actually taken place in its possible to see that great opportunities arose, skills blossomed and things changed for the better where, when and with an ease that one least expected them to. This is Te: mysterious and dynamic virtue/power of the Tao.

It might sound a bit crazy but I swear I've seen many people going this route and also had enough experience of it myself. Its a real path and is similar in some ways to Buddhist approaches but has a uniqueness to its philosophy that is very much Taoist.

One short snap of what its like is when we feel that nothing we can do, or can't do, will make any change to our sense of worth - even that everything we do or say is pretentious somehow. Following from this joy and goodness come welling up for no reason at all.

No reason, no purpose, no meaning and yet having the experience of all three of these simultaneously without trace. That's what its like. To put it another way its the experience is of finding oneself to be a better moral being after letting go of any notion that one should be. Its a gamble - that not trying to be good will actually turn out to be good. To me its about here that the distinction between apathy and apophatic mysticism can be found: apathy doesn't usually require enormous commitment, concentration and courage in dropping social expectations and personal desires.

[ChrisP]

Originally Posted by Master Vigil

Wu Wei as I understand it, is a total focus of now. The stream (yeah again with the stream) doesn't worry about where it's going, where it's been, how it's getting where it's going, etc... But it gets there effortlessly.

If we constantly focus on now, and make every now the best it can be. The future will eventually be a "now" and will inevitably be the best it can be. But if you are continually worry about the future, or the past, etc... The future will inevitably be worse because every "now" leading up until that future will have been worse.

Does that make sense? So in answering to your question, Wu Wei is certainly not apathy, or procrastination, or laziness, etc...

So... Don't worry be happy?

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by Scarlett Wampus

Hmm. Perhaps giving up purpose is equivalent to giving up ego but they're different flavours of the same detachment ice-cream. Uh, my metaphors are awful.

Yup.

Originally Posted by Scarlett Wampus

But anyway, the thing is I really feel it makes no sense to ascribe purpose to Tao, including contentment and harmony. It just so happens that giving up having the purpose of contentment and harmony tends to make those things more likely. So you see there is a massive difference between our positions.

Not really. There was a question posed in the Buddhist DIR related to this. In order to realize nibbana, we have to rid ourself of all attachment. But the desire to realize nibbana is in itself an attachment. So aren't Buddhists in a impossible position?

And the answer is, not really. You start with a purpose and because of that you practice. With practice, you realize that your purpose is based on ignorance, so you revise your purpose. And practice some more. And then realize that your revised goal is also based on ignorance... And so it goes. After all, one can't be expected to "know" before one starts.