Preaching the Tao (gospel, beliefs, eternal, faith, Christians)

[Scarlett Wampus]

Francis of Assisi is attributed with saying a Christian should preach the Gospel by example and resort to words only when absolutely necessary.

This struck me as similar in instinct to how many of the Taoist persuasion feel about Taoism itself. Sure we (ok, well, me) might talk the hind leg off a donkey given half a chance but when it comes to what really matters words aren't all that useful. In fact, having the design to convert others to Taoism through verbose preaching would run counter to what Taoism actually teaches.

How do you feel about this? What is it, if anything, that a Taoist should convey to others?

[Buttons*]

Originally Posted by Scarlett Wampus

Francis of Assisi is attributed with saying a Christian should preach the Gospel by example and resort to words only when absolutely necessary.

This struck me as similar in instinct to how many of the Taoist persuasion feel about Taoism itself. Sure we (ok, well, me) might talk the hind leg off a donkey given half a chance but when it comes to what really matters words aren't all that useful. In fact, having the design to convert others to Taoism through verbose preaching would run counter to what Taoism actually teaches.

How do you feel about this? What is it, if anything, that a Taoist should convey to others?

I know a sheep who can identify with your statement very well!

I think that you're right in that preaching Tao doesn't accurately portray Tao as it is. I've always felt the best way to show your faith and beliefs is thorugh actions, and not words. (Though, on this forum it's hard to escape that tidbit ) A Taoist, I feel, would "show" people what it means to truly "be." To exist, and be happy with not being known or praised for your understanding. How one would go about this? I think it's just something that those who are "in tune" would pick up on... like an aura of peace. Like an aura of Tao.

[Master Vigil]

You are absolutely right SW. And the hard part about teaching Taoism is that the student will want to be taught by words. Which will pose a problem for the instructor.

Francesco knew what he was doing. It is easy for someone to say something and do something completely contradictory. Because words are not real. They are simply symbols representing something else. That is why it is easy to lie, or argue. Can we argue without words? Not very well. The beauty of what Francesco did, with the help of Bernardo di Quintavalle, was "work"! The majority of people; Taoists, Christians, what have you... want enlightenment, peace, joy, etc... But they want it easily, and they want it by doing little. But as my grandfather always told me, "easy come, easy go." Anything worth doing, is hard. And one of the hardest things in this world is giving up on words, and embracing the world as it truly is. One.

Once this is achieved, Wu Wei is achieved, and then things become easier. I suppose not easier, more efficient.

Did any of that make sense?

[Pariah]

Doesn't the very first verse of the Tao Te Ching read:

The tao that can be described
is not the eternal Tao.
The name that can be spoken
is not the eternal Name.

Kind of takes the edge off of proselytizing when you can't describe what you're talking about, no?

[Scarlett Wampus]

Originally Posted by Buttons*

I know a sheep who can identify with your statement very well!

Originally Posted by Buttons*

I think that you're right in that preaching Tao doesn't accurately portray Tao as it is. I've always felt the best way to show your faith and beliefs is thorugh actions, and not words. (Though, on this forum it's hard to escape that tidbit ) A Taoist, I feel, would "show" people what it means to truly "be." To exist, and be happy with not being known or praised for your understanding. How one would go about this? I think it's just something that those who are "in tune" would pick up on... like an aura of peace. Like an aura of Tao.

Yeah. As Pariah suggested, accurately portraying Tao is impossible. Also Lao Tzu's whole notion that the world could not be improved (or worsened) and the Way was invariably mastered by doing nothing, heheh. To truly be, to truly be. Hmmm. That's that then.

Originally Posted by Master Vigil

Francesco knew what he was doing. It is easy for someone to say something and do something completely contradictory. Because words are not real. They are simply symbols representing something else. That is why it is easy to lie, or argue. Can we argue without words? Not very well. The beauty of what Francesco did, with the help of Bernardo di Quintavalle, was "work"! The majority of people; Taoists, Christians, what have you... want enlightenment, peace, joy, etc... But they want it easily, and they want it by doing little. But as my grandfather always told me, "easy come, easy go." Anything worth doing, is hard. And one of the hardest things in this world is giving up on words, and embracing the world as it truly is. One.

Once this is achieved, Wu Wei is achieved, and then things become easier. I suppose not easier, more efficient.

Did any of that make sense?

A lot of sense.

Words are not real. Hmmm. That's the trouble. Over the years I have come to a conclusion about language and a problem it brings. I'll try to explain it but I might get verbose myself in doing so: -

In themselves words only have the power to create maps of reality. While very useful, in fact it is a remarkable power, these maps have their limitations and are full of errors. They also have a tendency to become so habitual, firm set and dominant in our minds that we start to mistake the map for the territory and become trapped in a mentally constructed world that is cut off from its natural source.

So when our imperfect knowledge brings with it a sense of disharmony and we seek liberation/enlightenment, we find it remarkably difficult and even nonsensical to do what is needed most of all: put down our maps and look directly at the world, each other and ourselves as they are – we read into things much that isn't there while at the same time missing that which is right in front of us. For instance, if we get the notion that something called Tao exists and look for it we may see all sorts of things that resemble our impression of it but miss out on...well you know how it goes.

Worse than the above: feeling frustrated that the world seems to be in disharmony and left without the ability to put down our maps we can go about trying to make the world, each other and ourselves conform to how our maps say everything should be. This perpetuates our own sense of disharmony as well as bringing it to others while deep down we only wish to be free of it and free others of it also. It is a truly human tragedy/comedy.

Meditating, putting down words, etc. its hard work but such a useful skill to work on.

[Master Vigil]

Originally Posted by Scarlett Wampus

A lot of sense.

Words are not real. Hmmm. That's the trouble. Over the years I have come to a conclusion about language and a problem it brings. I'll try to explain it but I might get verbose myself in doing so: -

In themselves words only have the power to create maps of reality. While very useful, in fact it is a remarkable power, these maps have their limitations and are full of errors. They also have a tendency to become so habitual, firm set and dominant in our minds that we start to mistake the map for the territory and become trapped in a mentally constructed world that is cut off from its natural source.

So when our imperfect knowledge brings with it a sense of disharmony and we seek liberation/enlightenment, we find it remarkably difficult and even nonsensical to do what is needed most of all: put down our maps and look directly at the world, each other and ourselves as they are – we read into things much that isn't there while at the same time missing that which is right in front of us. For instance, if we get the notion that something called Tao exists and look for it we may see all sorts of things that resemble our impression of it but miss out on...well you know how it goes.

Worse than the above: feeling frustrated that the world seems to be in disharmony and left without the ability to put down our maps we can go about trying to make the world, each other and ourselves conform to how our maps say everything should be. This perpetuates our own sense of disharmony as well as bringing it to others while deep down we only wish to be free of it and free others of it also. It is a truly human tragedy/comedy.

Meditating, putting down words, etc. its hard work but such a useful skill to work on.

You've got it!

[Francine]

Originally Posted by Pariah

Kind of takes the edge off of proselytizing when you can't describe what you're talking about, no?

Tao is the space that opens up in front of you in a traffic jam and allows you to advance briefly. The space then appears behind you, tireless, ready to be used by the next car. It is the utility of nothingness.

[Willamena]

Originally Posted by Francine

Tao is the space that opens up in front of you in a traffic jam and allows you to advance briefly. The space then appears behind you, tireless, ready to be used by the next car. It is the utility of nothingness.

Yeah... but then it's the Tao that's named.

[Francine]

Originally Posted by Willamena

Yeah... but then it's the Tao that's named.

Throughout the ages its name has been preserved in order to recall the beginning of all things.

[Willamena]

The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named is not the eternal name

Accurate Translation of the Tao Te Ching

You gave it a name.