Hun Tun (Earth, creation, experience, God, heaven)

[Azakel]

Now I'm not a Taoist but like other religions there are part in it that make sense to me, in fact most of me "Chaotic" belief is stems from Eastern believes.
Well it's seem that I have been asked as of late what I think Chaos is, and though I do give a good answer(imo....hehe), this is an easier way. Why do I believe Chaos is all, and not void like Western culture, because Hun Tun makes more sense to me.

The emperor of the South Sea was called Shu [Brief], the emperor of the North Sea was called Hu [Sudden], and the emperor of the central region was called Hun-tun [Chaos]. Shu and Hu from time to time came together for a meeting in the territory of Hun-tun, and Hun-tun treated them very generously. Shu and Hu discussed how they could repay his kindness. "All men," they said, "have seven openings so they can see, hear, eat, and breathe. But Hun-tun alone doesn't have any. Let's trying boring him some!" Every day they bored another hole, and on the seventh day Hun-tun died.*

Hun-tun, that is Chaos, is not to be confused with the chaos as typically seen in the western world as in "chaotic." It is the supreme ideal of Taoism. Chaos is wholeness, oneness and Nature. Chaos represents the natural state of the world. Digging holes on the head of Chaos means destroying the natural state of the cosmos. Therefore, to the ancient Chinese chaos not only has the meaning of disorder but also presents a respectable aesthetic state. This idea of chaos may be very different from its western counterpart.

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by Grimmjow

Every day they bored another hole, and on the seventh day Hun-tun died.*

Fascinating that it's the seventh day.

According to the Taoist creation story I was told as a child, the universe was formed out of a giant egg of Chaos. Inside the egg, a giant named Pan Ku came into being, growing until he filled the egg. And when he awoke and saw nothing but disorder, he smashed the egg in a fit.

The lighter, brighter, warmer parts (yang) floated upward to form heaven and the heavier, darker, colder parts (yin) sank down to form earth. Pan Ku stood in between and held them apart from each other, growing ten feet each day. He stood there for 18,000 years, all the while heaven and earth growing further apart, until they were set. Afterwards, Pan Ku placed the four holy mountains of China in each corner to hold heaven and earth apart in his place.

Then he died and his body parts became the stars, clouds, trees, streams, etc.

In this story, my interpretation is that chaos/unity cannot hold life. Only when Duality is introduced can there be existence. Duality meaning change.

I am wondering if you can reconcile these two stories. Or perhaps it would be a mistake to try.

[Azakel]

Originally Posted by lilithu

Fascinating that it's the seventh day.

According to the Taoist creation story I was told as a child, the universe was formed out of a giant egg of Chaos. Inside the egg, a giant named Pan Ku came into being, growing until he filled the egg. And when he awoke and saw nothing but disorder, he smashed the egg in a fit.

The lighter, brighter, warmer parts (yang) floated upward to form heaven and the heavier, darker, colder parts (yin) sank down to form earth. Pan Ku stood in between and held them apart from each other, growing ten feet each day. He stood there for 18,000 years, all the while heaven and earth growing further apart, until they were set. Afterwards, Pan Ku placed the four holy mountains of China in each corner to hold heaven and earth apart in his place.

Then he died and his body parts became the stars, clouds, trees, streams, etc.

In this story, my interpretation is that chaos/unity cannot hold life. Only when Duality is introduced can there be existence. Duality meaning change.

I am wondering if you can reconcile these two stories. Or perhaps it would be a mistake to try.

That's an interesting story, and I don't know if you can reconcile the two. I wouldn't try though, I'm not good at things like that.

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by Grimmjow

That's an interesting story, and I don't know if you can reconcile the two. I wouldn't try though, I'm not good at things like that.

I find you're story to be much more interesting. The meaning of the Pan Ku story is pretty straight-forward, I think. Whereas, the first time I heard your story (this is the second time) I was disturbed. I was like: "He died?! How awful!" Actually, I still feel that way.

And the meaning isn't as obvious. I like your interpretation.

I was thinking... in terms of your interpretation and the orifices they were trying to drill into his head. They wanted to give him eyes, ears, a nose and a mouth. We see, hear, smell, and taste things, which seems good. But when we do, we interpret them. We put our own "judgment" on them. We categorize them so that they are no longer Chaos. Maybe that's why Chaos died.


I still think it's funny that it was the seventh day.

"And on the seventh day, God rested."

"And on the seventh day, Hun Tun died."

[Azakel]

Originally Posted by lilithu

I find you're story to be much more interesting. The meaning of the Pan Ku story is pretty straight-forward, I think. Whereas, the first time I heard your story (this is the second time) I was disturbed. I was like: "He died?! How awful!" Actually, I still feel that way.

And the meaning isn't as obvious. I like your interpretation.

I was thinking... in terms of your interpretation and the orifices they were trying to drill into his head. They wanted to give him eyes, ears, a nose and a mouth. We see, hear, smell, and taste things, which seems good. But when we do, we interpret them. We put our own "judgment" on them. We categorize them so that they are no longer Chaos. Maybe that's why Chaos died.


I still think it's funny that it was the seventh day.

"And on the seventh day, God rested."

"And on the seventh day, Hun Tun died."

Ya when I read that he died I was like......"No why, not fare."
And I agree that with the orifices lead to judgment and I don't like Chaos could stand it and just died. Hun Tun as Chaos represented nature, and nature don't judge(imo), and once he could see, hear, small, and taste the world, it was too much.

[Comet]

Originally Posted by Grimmjow

Now I'm not a Taoist but like other religions there are part in it that make sense to me, in fact most of me "Chaotic" belief is stems from Eastern believes.
Well it's seem that I have been asked as of late what I think Chaos is, and though I do give a good answer(imo....hehe), this is an easier way. Why do I believe Chaos is all, and not void like Western culture, because Hun Tun makes more sense to me.

The emperor of the South Sea was called Shu [Brief], the emperor of the North Sea was called Hu [Sudden], and the emperor of the central region was called Hun-tun [Chaos]. Shu and Hu from time to time came together for a meeting in the territory of Hun-tun, and Hun-tun treated them very generously. Shu and Hu discussed how they could repay his kindness. "All men," they said, "have seven openings so they can see, hear, eat, and breathe. But Hun-tun alone doesn't have any. Let's trying boring him some!" Every day they bored another hole, and on the seventh day Hun-tun died.*

Hun-tun, that is Chaos, is not to be confused with the chaos as typically seen in the western world as in "chaotic." It is the supreme ideal of Taoism. Chaos is wholeness, oneness and Nature. Chaos represents the natural state of the world. Digging holes on the head of Chaos means destroying the natural state of the cosmos. Therefore, to the ancient Chinese chaos not only has the meaning of disorder but also presents a respectable aesthetic state. This idea of chaos may be very different from its western counterpart.

How have I missed this till now Grimm? Taosist... seems Jaini to me a bit, but I'm with you for the most part.

[ChrisP]

There is no order or disorder imho. Just the natural state. Whether that is chaos is only in the name, and does nothing to describe a state which can only be experienced to be understood.

[Francine]

Originally Posted by Azakel

"All men," they said, "have seven openings so they can see, hear, eat, and breathe. But Hun-tun alone doesn't have any. Let's trying boring him some!" Every day they bored another hole, and on the seventh day Hun-tun died.

A woman died and went to heaven. When she arrived, she heard a terrible scream and asked what it was. "You have been preceded by a man who is being fitted with wings, and we need to make holes to attach them," St. Peter told her.

Later, she heard another terrible scream and asked what that was.

"The man in front of you is being fitted for a halo, and we need to drill a hole in his head to attach it," St. Peter replied.

The woman said, "That's it, I'm going to hell."

St. Peter objected, saying, "But you'll be raped and sodomized down there!"

The woman replied, "It's okay, I already have the holes for that."