Do we need help? (ritual, salvation, beliefs, Revelation, experience)

[Master Vigil]

In christianity, the idea of humans being unable to reach salvation on our own is very prevelant. In Taoism are we able to achieve One with Tao on our own, or do we need help? And if we do, what will help us?

[ChrisP]

Hey M_V, peace and good wishes to you.

The Tao te Ching itself is probably the only guiding hand we need. Whether or not we need help to see it then the answer is very individual, and hinges solely on how each person wishes to practise their beliefs.

I think a little help can be useful, more in a "sounding board" sort of sense. You yourself were very useful for that when I joined this board back in the day.

There are a lot of concepts that are not easily explained or verbalised within the core of understanding Tao. Some will come to Tao through their own understanding, some will need a guiding hand. If each of us listens and is mindful then those chances to help people won't really seem like help, just answering a thoughtful question (just leave the Chuang Tzu out... my head spins sometimes).

Such experience can only benefit the listener as much as the questioner. (at least that's my experience).

So go on ask away ladies and gentlemen and let's share in our spiritual growth and understanding.

[PureX]

We are always "at one with the tao", really, whether we are aware of it or not, as it's part of the tao of mankind to be ignorant and selfish, and to imagine that we are an independant force unto ourselves even when we aren't. So we don't need to be "saved" or to achieve anything. When taoism refers to becoming one with the tao, or embodying the tao, it really only refers to our awareness of being a part of the tao.

The word "tao" refers to the flow of existence. And we are always a part of that flow, whether we are aware of this or not, and even whether we are struggling against that flow in pursuit of some self-centered desire, or not. The practice of taoism is simply the practice of a spontaneous awareness of our being within this flow, and of our living with it instead of pointlessly struggling against it.

[ChrisP]

I agree PureX, but I think M_V sees it differently, whereby we must become aware and then move towards synchronicity if you will... I've read some of his posts before where he says that man has moved away from Tao, and I agree, but if that is man's place then that is also Tao.

[PureX]

Originally Posted by ChrisP

I agree PureX, but I think M_V sees it differently, whereby we must become aware and then move towards synchronicity if you will... I've read some of his posts before where he says that man has moved away from Tao, and I agree, but if that is man's place then that is also Tao.

The truth always appears paradoxical to us. That's why I don't generally agree with western religions that insist that truth can't be self-contradictory, or relative. I think paradox and relativism are what truth looks like to our limited human consciousness.

[Rolling_Stone]

Originally Posted by Master Vigil

In christianity, the idea of humans being unable to reach salvation on our own is very prevelant. In Taoism are we able to achieve One with Tao on our own, or do we need help? And if we do, what will help us?

There is nothing to "achieve."

[wizanda]

In Taoism, let the carpenter be the judge of that....the small scroll in Revelation chapter 10 (fulfilled 2 years before reading it) is the DAO Te-Ching, as it is Oneness principles....
Which are sweet to the taste as it is poetry, yet bitter in stomach, as if we used Dao globally in politics, life would be better.

[Master Vigil]

So we don't need help. That would make it seem that I know everything. And I don't find that very humble. Even if I can do it myself. Something, somewhere, however minute will help.

Nothing to achieve? Then why live? Why meditate? Why get up in the morning. THis reminds me of the zen koan... "Who are you?"

[wizanda]

Do not worry "I am" this or that, just be.....