Do we need help? (ritual, salvation, beliefs, Revelation, experience)

[Bennu]

Originally Posted by Master Vigil

In Taoism are we able to achieve One with Tao on our own, or do we need help?

I certainly wouldn't know, but I suspect that we don't-don't require help to be 'One with Tao'. (Whatever that is)

Though, in honesty, I tend to find such questions a little... Unusual. For myself, a part of Taoism has tended to be that wherever you are is wherever you are, and entirely valid in that. Trying to divide between 'needing' and 'not-needing' help seems to be setting up a false dilemma.

Originally Posted by Master Vigil

THis reminds me of the zen koan... "Who are you?"

To which I might respond, "I am me."

[Master Vigil]

Originally Posted by PureX

But the tao always appears as paradox, to us (yin/yang). You're trying to work out that which can't be worked out by the human mind, because we exist within the tao. We are subjects of the paradox (yin/yang).

I agree. And referred to that when I said that the ego cannot drop the ego. Because we cannot possibly understand something that we are a part of and "within" by first thinking that we are apart, separate, and "without".

Originally Posted by PureX

All that can be done from our perspective is to humble ourselves before the divine mystery, or fight with it in ignorance. Either way, we remain subjects of the paradox. Either way, we play our part in the flow of existence. The only difference is that when we live humbly and in accord with the flow of being that surrounds and envelops us, we can find joy and peace in that experience. But if we live always at war with that flow, trying to wring out of it our own desires and our own righteousness, then we will likely end up frustrated and exhausted.

Pretty much. So there is no sacred sacrificial god/man that needs to help us find salvation. Whew! When humans are born, they are born in that humble state you referred to. But as we grow human society impends upon us a philosophical and spiritual doom. I speak of preconceived ideas, worry, stress, unnecessary desires, etc... Society tells us that that is normal, and preferred. If left unchecked, the human being will likely never get out of that spiritually doomed state. As you said before, they will always live at war with that flow, trying to wring out of it their own desires and righteousness. What will stop them from ending up frustrated and exhausted within that spiritually doomed state?

[PureX]

Originally Posted by Master Vigil

What will stop them from ending up frustrated and exhausted within that spiritually doomed state?

Nothing. But then nothing is making us live that way, either. So we can simply surrender at any time, if we choose.

[Master Vigil]

Originally Posted by PureX

Nothing. But then nothing is making us live that way, either. So we can simply surrender at any time, if we choose.

Nothing? If nothing is the cause, then there would be no effect. But there is an effect. We have just been discussing it. And if we can simply surrender, by choice, that would imply that I have control over something. But "I" as a concept cannot do anything. So how can someone simply surrender themselves without any influence?

[Buttons*]

Originally Posted by Master Vigil

Nothing? If nothing is the cause, then there would be no effect. But there is an effect. We have just been discussing it. And if we can simply surrender, by choice, that would imply that I have control over something. But "I" as a concept cannot do anything. So how can someone simply surrender themselves without any influence?

Doesn't it just happen when one understands the Oneness? Not by doing, but when an awakening happens. For me, it usually isn't brought on any more than by walking outside. Sometimes I feel it for no reason at all. It's got nothing to do with aciton or inaction, it's understanding of the mind and of the heart. Doesn't come through making anything happen or concentrating on it. That just makes the awakening fall away, and again one is left with stress and worry about things that are not under ones control.

I'm sorry I didn't understand your original question! I hope this is a clearer answer to what i think... or at least it's relevant. Sorry if it's not!

[Master Vigil]

Originally Posted by Buttons*

Doesn't it just happen when one understands the Oneness? Not by doing, but when an awakening happens. For me, it usually isn't brought on any more than by walking outside. Sometimes I feel it for no reason at all. It's got nothing to do with aciton or inaction, it's understanding of the mind and of the heart. Doesn't come through making anything happen or concentrating on it. That just makes the awakening fall away, and again one is left with stress and worry about things that are not under ones control.

We can understand Tao by understanding nature. You are correct in that things just "happen" in nature. There is no real "doing". However, the things that just happen, happen in a succession that naturally sets up the "happening" to happen. Meaning, clouds don't "just form" without the correct influence of water in the air. So your awakening by just walking outside was influenced by just walking outside. No matter how small, minute, minuscule, etc... of an influence it is. It is still influenced. Is anyone understanding this?

Originally Posted by Buttons

I'm sorry I didn't understand your original question! I hope this is a clearer answer to what i think... or at least it's relevant. Sorry if it's not!

I think the majority of people did not understand my first question. Probably because they are too focused on the words that I used. Because the first thing people starting rebuking was words.

[Master Vigil]

Has anyone ever thought that the help, influence, etc... that I might be asking about here is Tao?

[YmirGF]

Hehe. I maintain that the individual can *grok* the Tao by subtracting themselves from the equation of life and time via meditation. We are a bit more incredible than most appreciate. The thing is, when we "return" we are back where we started... within the Toa and only have our memories of the views we beheld while we were outside. The trick is simply to learn to stop thinking, and move into the centre of being. "There" you will find the doorway that leads to your greater identity which is beyond the Tao.

Small note: One thing I have been pondering of late is that Oneness is possibly the final illusion of our dualistic reality. I could be wrong, but my view that leads me to say that is a trifle difficult to boil down into mere words.