Do we need help? (ritual, salvation, beliefs, Revelation, experience)

[Master Vigil]

Originally Posted by wizanda

Do not worry "I am" this or that, just be.....

I said that to my Zen master once, she said... "close." I still haven't gotten it right supposedly.

Originally Posted by PureX

For the joy of it?

Then I have to achieve joy.

Originally Posted by PureX

For the peace it brings?

Than meditation is used to "achieve" peace.

Originally Posted by PureX

For the adventure of life, and love?

Than I have to achieve the adventure of life, and love.

Originally Posted by PureX

Does it really matter?

Can we answer a question with a question? OF COURSE!

Even is "achievement" is a dropping of ego, an awareness, a final understanding, a realization, a "just be". It is still a state in which I was not in before.

[PureX]

Originally Posted by Master Vigil

I said that to my Zen master once, she said... "close." I still haven't gotten it right supposedly.

Then I have to achieve joy.
Than meditation is used to "achieve" peace.
Than I have to achieve the adventure of life, and love.
Can we answer a question with a question? OF COURSE!

Even is "achievement" is a dropping of ego, an awareness, a final understanding, a realization, a "just be". It is still a state in which I was not in before.

Joy is what we feel when we stop trying to have fun. Peace is what we feel when we stop trying to define and manipulate our environment. Love is what we feel when we stop trying to own and correct the people and things around us, and the adventure of life is what we have when we stop trying to control the flow of our own existence. These things are not the result of effort, or of "achievement". They are our natural state once we stop trying to define and control and possess.

Once the ego is quieted, the idea that quieting it is an "achievement" will have vanished.

[Master Vigil]

Originally Posted by PureX

They are our natural state once we stop trying to define and control and possess.

Stopping something, dropping something, quieting something, etc... Is in itself a form of "achievement". Whether or not we use the word "achievement" or not. It is a state in which I was not in before.

Once the ego is quieted, the idea that quieting it is an "achievement" will have vanished.

So to achieve the state of quieting to where I understand that the quieting is not an achievement. MAN I LOVE CIRCULAR PHILOSOPHY!

When I look at the Grand Canyon. The river did not care about it's direction, force, speed, etc... It didn't care about where it was going, what it was doing, etc... But what an achievement! Whether or not our path is linear, circular, diagonal, or whatever. It is still a path. One minute step along whatever path I walk, or float, or whatever... is an awesome achievement.

[PureX]

Once the ego is quieted, the idea that quieting it is an "achievement" will have vanished.

[Master Vigil]

Originally Posted by PureX

Once the ego is quieted, the idea that quieting it is an "achievement" will have vanished.

And what an awesome achievement that will be. We can go on forever.

[Buttons*]

Originally Posted by Master Vigil

And what an awesome achievement that will be. We can go on forever.

You can continue pushing your point of "achieving" whatever and remain puzzled. You can also not look at life as a series of achievements, because there is no point to achieve anything. We all end up as worm food. I don't really even need to tell you this.

I believe it's Socrates, "all I know is that I know nothing."

That is the thought that keeps me humble when I really listen to my heart. Not only does it thwart the ego for you- I believe it to be true of everyone! At least, it's enlightening to ponder.

In any case, with your circular reasoning, I could say that taking a poo this morning was an achievement... but it wasn't. (Perhaps making it to the toilet was, though. ) That would be an absurd statement. The truth is, a bowel movement is something my body does on its own, unaided.

So is being.

[Buttons*]

Originally Posted by Master Vigil

In christianity, the idea of humans being unable to reach salvation on our own is very prevelant. In Taoism are we able to achieve One with Tao on our own, or do we need help? And if we do, what will help us?

I think it varies on an individual level, but ultimately, everyone takes the journey alone - even though we all take it together. It's almost cruely ironic. (If anyone has a problem with my use of ironic, shove it )

Here's, wots, uh, the deal: If you think you need help, then get some, if you want to understand it on your own, then do it! It really does depend on the person and their level of understanding. Personally, I need to think about something and then discuss it. It allows me to bounce ideas and gain perspective.

Other people I know believe that just meditating for a while is really all the clarity you need.

What do you think helps you? Do you feel like you need help?

[Random]

I believe a human being can be fully empowered to attend to his or her own salvation if they know what it is that they need to be saved from. Not otherwise (obviously...)

[Master Vigil]

I do apologize if anyone actually thought I believed in achievement. But arguing against the definition of a word by using the definition outright is simply counterproductive in my opinion. In the end, if the ego tries to let go of the ego, it will NEVER be done.

My original idea when starting this thread (I think I remember..., it was a while ago), was to spur some actual thought about our place in this "thing" called the universe. When a stream (you all should know how much I love the proverbial stream) flows, does it just happen? Or is it helped?

I am a firm believer that I cannot "do" anything, but given the circumstances; things can happen that are somehow connected with my odd presence in this universe, making me think that I "did" something. Flowers only grow where they can be supported, a stream only flows where the environment is suited for it. However... what is the suited environment for oneness? Every environment? If this were true everyone would be enlightened? For naturally we as natural beings would follow the suited environment naturally. But some environments seem more attached to our ego and are more hindering.

So in the end, we have to ask ourself... do I control anything? If not, than I can't "do" anything on my own; "Achieve anything on my own; "Be" anything on my own; and least of all drop my ego on my own. But if I do control something, than that implies ego. Uhoh, I'm back to the beginning again.