YAY, A TAOISM FORUM!!!!!!! (hell, pray, God, heaven, prayer)

[DontFearMe]

This sounds to me to be very vague, Taoism. What man invented this ideology? Lao Tzu? So, my question would be, how do you know this ideology or philosophy is accurate? This is the meat so to speak! :mrgreen:

[spacegirl]

Seems like everything we do good or bad cannot be subjective because we do not live in isolation of ourselves. If I murder or steal from someone thats takes away from someone's wealth or takes someone's life. A chain of reaction is set upon by the decisions I make. How does this fit into Taoism?

[Runt]

arabian_knight1--

When Master Vigil said "when one dies, one becomes one with the Tao", you said:

Originally Posted by arabian_knight1

I don't understand this ??

It is analogous with the Christian belief that those who are good in life will join God in heaven. The only difference is that Tao is not entirely the same thing as your God (no gender, no human-like personality) and Taoists believe all people rejoin the Tao when they die... This is because we are essentially energy, and the Tao is essentially energy, and when we die the energy of our body and our life (you would say the soul) is released to join the vast body of energy that is the Tao.

Originally Posted by arabian_knight1

so what will happen to murderers and thiefs and robbers and rapers etc...

They will suffer in life for what they have done by not being able to reach the Tao... but they will suffer no eternal consequences.

Originally Posted by arabian_knight1

I mean that is there a series of dos and don'ts in Taoism or your allowed to do whatever you want as long as it satisfys you .

Ah, like "sins" and "commandments", you mean? Well, this is a complex question. While Taoists basically regard "good" and "evil" as concepts that only exist in the mind (meaning we manufacture these concepts to refer to things that have a negative or positive impact on us as a species or as individuals, much as a child who has a bad experience will likely think of an object associated with that experience as "bad"), we also recognize that morals are necessary to surviving in society. Therefore, the moral "do"s and "do not"s of a Taoist are social rather than religious. However, as I stated earlier, we do not believe that doing "evil" in life will cause eternal consequences. We will join the Tao upon death no matter what we do. However, we also believe that it is possible to experience oneness with the Tao DURING life (generally through meditation), and possible to live according to the Tao (which is actually a means for experiencing that oneness). There are recommendations about how to achieve both of these things, but again, whether or not we follow these recommendations has no impact on our "afterlife".

[Runt]

DontFearMe--

Originally Posted by DontFearMe

This sounds to me to be very vague, Taoism. What man invented this ideology? Lao Tzu?

Yup.

Originally Posted by DontFearMe

So, my question would be, how do you know this ideology or philosophy is accurate

Well, it is the only spiritual philosophy that I know of that can be COMPETELY IN ACCORDANCE with science. No "God" to speak of and try to prove the existence of despite a distinct LACK of evidence (many atheists would call the Tao "reality" or the "Universe", and some Taoists would agree--though I think Master Vigil would NOT, for he believes it be be a little more supernatural :P ), no outstanding, impossible miracles (just meditation and the feeling of being one with the universe)... the beef most atheists have with Taoism is that it is just ANOTHER name for atheism and that we should just admit that we are "really" atheists!

Because scientific knowledge is discovered using the scientific method (which in my opinion is superior to the reliance upon intuition alone to learn about the universe--though I think this is possible and should not be ignored, just examined carefully for validity), and since nothing about Taoism that I know of goes AGAINST science, I am fairly sure that Taoism is accurate. And unlike many other religions, should I find that it is NOT accurate, I will probably abandon it in favor of atheism or agnosticism (or some other philosophy which has enough evidence of truth).

[Runt]

Originally Posted by spacegirl

Seems like everything we do good or bad cannot be subjective because we do not live in isolation of ourselves.

The belief that something we do is "good" or "evil" is based entirely upon its affect upon us as a species or as an invididual. To believe that this action is "good" or "evil" outside of the human situation is egocentric--we think we are the most important mortal entity in the universe (because we are the "smartest" on this one planet) and that something that is detrimental to us is "evil" and something that is beneficial to us is "good".

What you really have is not actions which are "good" and "evil" but actions which are ultimately beneficial or detrimental to a human or humanity. The difference? The former assumes that God shares our like or dislike of this action because He/She/It cares about the welfare of humanity, whereas the latter holds that the action is simply part of reality, part of the universe, and is not in and of itself good or bad except in the eyes of the human(s) being affected by it.

For example: a fire, in and of itself, is just a phenomonen. It is something that happens when the correct combination of conditions are met. These conditions are perfectly natural and the effects of the fire (the changing of the form of the matter that comes in contact with it) are perfectly natural. It is not good or bad, it just IS.

However, if it is the house of a human that is being burned down, or a human who is harmed by that fire, then we call it "evil" and some people will go so far as to insist that some malignant force opposing God was trying to "do evil" upon that human or the human's dwelling.

Originally Posted by spacegirl

If I murder or steal from someone thats takes away from someone's wealth or takes someone's life. A chain of reaction is set upon by the decisions I make. How does this fit into Taoism?

The Natural Tao (the portion of the Eternal Tao that we can understand and which includes all the natural laws) would handle this. Anything that were to occur would be perfectly natural, despite the way in which a human or group of humans might look upon each seperate event. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. This is a stated scientific fact. Thus if we flout the physical laws of the universe and... oh, I don't know...step in front of a moving vehicle, we must expect to get hurt. Similarly, if we go against the moral laws society has set before us, we must be prepared to deal with the consequences society has designated for us. All this fits in with the Natural Tao. However, I suspect you were trying to argue that such actions would have eternal consequences. They do not, at least not the way in which you are saying. Yes, our actions would have an effect on society, but they would be short-lived when you compare the total history of humanity to the tiny individual deeds of each man or woman. And yes, the universe as a whole would be subtly, minutely changed after any destructive act on our part, but then again, it is subtly changed after ANY action, because every action is a change, and every change causes more change. So the Tao itself may be subtly changed, and we, joining the Tao upon death, may therefore be subtly changed as well... but this is not the kind of eternal consequence that is recognized in almost every other religion (Hell, constant reincarnation, reincarnation as a low life form, etc). It is not negative... it just IS!

[spacegirl]

I'll really have to give thought to your reply. Yes I do think I was thinking about it in a eternal way. Also in a way of justice which is based in religious ideals. But I have still yet to read any of the essentials on taoism. But you answered my question very well.

[LeNinjaChic]

I am a recent deconvert from fundamental xianity. I am facinated by Taoism, as many of the beliefs seem to fit well with mine. I am not sure that I could call myself a Taoist *yet*...but I am enjoying learning about the religion.

As I understand it, there is the tao which can be described, no matter how inadequately. Even though we may not fully understand it, we can put it into some semblence of words. Then, beyond that, there is the Tao that cannot be named. It is the Ultimate Source for all that is. Basically, there is a tao within the Tao.

In my Westernized mind, and comparing it to what I've been raised in (xianity), I would compare this to God says, "Before I was, I AM"

Thoughts?

[LeNinjaChic]

I also have a question:

Do Taoists believe that they are given guides/an inner voice to help them through life? Christians refer to it as "The Holy Spirit" or "God spoke to my heart," etc. It's what Judaism refers to as the "Still, small voice" that leads us all. Do Taoists believe in this and if so, what is it called?

Thanks :hi:

[Runt]

LeNinjaChick--

Originally Posted by LeNinjaChick

As I understand it, there is the tao which can be described, no matter how inadequately. Even though we may not fully understand it, we can put it into some semblence of words. Then, beyond that, there is the Tao that cannot be named. It is the Ultimate Source for all that is. Basically, there is a tao within the Tao.

There are many ways to look at it, I think.

You can say that the Eternal Tao is the ultimate reality... it is the true nature of the universe, the way things really are. As humans, we are unable to see the Eternal Tao because we are "burdened" by our perception: our minds constantly interpret everything according to ourselves--as I said earlier, we humans are egocentric-- and assign values like "important" and "good" and "big" to the elements of the Eternal Tao, which blinds us to the true nature of the Eternal Tao.

Then there is the Natural Tao. In my opinion it is our perception of the Eternal Tao. It is our own little reality, which is basically the Eternal Tao with a bunch of symbols, values, and interpretations attached. Thus in a way the Natural Tao is an illusion of reality... but it is an illusion that we cannot escape from (except through brief moments of meditation or death) and therefore it IS Reality.

Another theory (and I think this is the one that Master Vigil adheres to, though I am not sure--MV, WHERE ARE YOU?!?) is that the Eternal Tao is the source of all things, and the Natural Tao is all things.

And then there is another theory, that the Eternal Tao is the incomprehensible totality of all that exists in reality--it is a Whole, One-- whereas the Natural Tao is the parts of this reality which we name and define.

I think the truth is that the Tao is basically a combination of all three...

Originally Posted by LeNinjaChick

Do Taoists believe that they are given guides/an inner voice to help them through life? Christians refer to it as "The Holy Spirit" or "God spoke to my heart," etc. It's what Judaism refers to as the "Still, small voice" that leads us all. Do Taoists believe in this and if so, what is it called?

I think to answer this question you would really have to ask each individual Taoist. One Taoist (like me) might say that all answers can eventually be found through the Self, and that the Self may reveal things to us by manifesting in dreams or during meditation as "spirit guides". Another Taoist, like Master Vigil, would probably say that there are lots of intelligent entities out there besides humans, and that these spirits may indeed chose to help us. Then there are Taoists who supposedly believe that the Tao manifests as personal archetypal Gods and Goddesses (just as I believe the psyche does this), who may help humans. As I said, it depends on which Taoist you are talking to.

[Master Vigil]

All things in Tao are one, from the Tao came all the myriad things. These things are both one with and apart from the Tao. They seem to exist externally from it, yet they are bound to it for the Tao is what flows through and connects everything. So in short... the Tao is all things, but all things are not the Tao.

Taoists believe that nature provides what is necessary and nothing more. For if we have more than we need, than thievery can come upon us. If we have little, than when little is lost, little is easier to obtain again. All things are found within and not without. Even though Taoists would find inspiration in many places, it is the perception of these many places that brings understanding.