Taoist idea of Wu Wei (beliefs, experience, Zen, taoism)

[Master Vigil]

It is true that your questions were not illogical. They were very logical, I want you to look past logic. Taoism is man made, the Tao however is not.

"human philosophy disguised as spiritual"

Too many words with so many meanings. Isn't what's human, spiritual as well. Isn't whats human, the Tao as well. Isn't whats spirit, the Tao as well. Isn't whats Tao, everything. Simplicity is where the Tao is understood. Not when too many words are used.

"When once the Primordial Simplicity diversified, Different names appeard. Are there not enough names now?"
End of chapter 32 - Tao Te Ching

[Master Vigil]

"According to that view it would be fair to say that I have been using 'western', or rather 'scientific', or as some would say 'apollo/solar' logic."

My opinion, yes. Eastern logic is much less logical. If that makes any sense.

[Runt]

just trying to get you to understand without words. And with symbols.

But can even symbols be used to "define" the Tao? For the Tao is outside human understanding, and symbols are still confined within human perception. Or is it that, using words, we see symbol... and using symbols we start to see Tao?

Like... a metaphor is basically words. Once you get past the words, you see that the metaphor is a symbol representing something. Once you understand what truth the symbol contains, you begin see the nature of the thing that you first tried (and failed) to define with words.

Each word is a symbol, when you think about it. A word is a symbol for an idea. "God"... three letters that are symbolic for audible sounds that we make with our voices and hear with our ears, forming a more complex sound that is symbolic of an idea...so we get back where we started. The word IS the symbol IS the reality...

[dudley thoth]

Originally Posted by Master Vigil

Eastern logic is much less logical

Surely 'logic' by any definition cannot be logicLESS. Something that defies logic cannot be logical. Something may be, shall we say 'miraculous', or 'supernatual', or 'paranormal', but even these must be logical. otherwise their just impossible and absurd.

the more diverse a Language, the greater the potental of expression. Also, more words can reduce the chances of misunderstanding.

[Master Vigil]

We use words to try to understand the Tao and the world around us. But the words still cannot completely define or even begin to express the true nature of it. I'm trying to help you answer your own questions by looking within you.

"Surely 'logic' by any definition cannot be logicLESS. Something that defies logic cannot be logical. Something may be, shall we say 'miraculous', or 'supernatual', or 'paranormal', but even these must be logical. otherwise their just impossible and absurd."

Again you use definition. Get past the words. I walked out of the door to my karate school today, and I saw a bird, the bird was eating a crum. This is the nature of the Tao. You may see what the words say, but what do they mean. Why must the miraculous, supernatural, and paranormal be logical? Maybe human logic do not apply to them. To understand your questions about the Tao, you must first understand the nature of the Tao. I can cite passages from the Tao Te Ching, but until you understand yourself, and the nature of the Tao. You may or may not understand the passages. How do you eat an elephant? One step at a time.

"the more diverse a Language, the greater the potental of expression. Also, more words can reduce the chances of misunderstanding."

Expression yes, but that doesn't necessarily mean you will be understood. And more words, only increase misunderstanding. For the more words you put to an object, the more confused a person becomes when trying to choose the best word.

"The Tao can be talked about, But not the Eternal Tao. The name can be named, but not the Eternal name."

[dudley thoth]

Originally Posted by Master Vigil

And more words, only increase misunderstanding. For the more words you put to an object, the more confused a person becomes when trying to choose the best word.

Using your bird analogy, you may have said, "I saw a flying thing sticking its head into something white and fluffy", and i may not of fully understood you. Or you could of said, " I saw a pigeon pecking at a piece of bread" and I would of understood you better, not the reverse. And there's nothing illogical about a bird eating bread.

However, I may not grasp the Tao/Zen of it. But what has that to do with words? How do my word's misinterpret something that word's fail (either big or small) to capture?

Words have little, or nothing, to do with the Taoist actuality (whatever that may be) of the senario you described, regardless of how little/many words you may have used.

How can the ultimate reality be inherently illogical? Okay, so it might not conform to our little-logic, but surely it makes sence within itself?

I'm going on a bit now. Sorry Master Virgil.

[Master Vigil]

"Using your bird analogy, you may have said, "I saw a flying thing sticking its head into something white and fluffy", and i may not of fully understood you. Or you could of said, " I saw a pigeon pecking at a piece of bread" and I would of understood you better, not the reverse. And there's nothing illogical about a bird eating bread."

The key here is not what the words say, its what they mean. The bird might not actually be a bird at all. But be a metaphor for something else. Or just a hint of your own existence. Of course a bird eating bread is not illogical, but understanding that the bird may not just be a bird is.

"However, I may not grasp the Tao/Zen of it. But what has that to do with words? How do my word's misinterpret something that word's fail (either big or small) to capture?"

To understand further I will tell you about the flower sermon buddha gave. All he did was hold up a flower and spin it in his fingers. All were puzzled except one, the follower just smiled. And then the buddha made him his successor on the spot. This is where we see the first hint of zen buddhism. The ability for that one man to understand completely without the words and the ability for buddha to know he understood without words. It is difficult to teach taoism over the internet because I am bound by the words I type. For this I apologize. But I try to make it up by giving you riddles and metaphors. The idea is you must unerstand yourself to understand the riddle. And once you understand the riddle, you understand the Tao. All words misinterpret that which no words can fathom. You must find it within you.

"Words have little, or nothing, to do with the Taoist actuality (whatever that may be) of the senario you described, regardless of how little/many words you may have used."

The words do not, but the answer to the metaphor does.

"
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Master Vigil wrote: › Select ›‹ Expand
And more words, only increase misunderstanding. For the more words you put to an object, the more confused a person becomes when trying to choose the best word.


Using your bird analogy, you may have said, "I saw a flying thing sticking its head into something white and fluffy", and i may not of fully understood you. Or you could of said, " I saw a pigeon pecking at a piece of bread" and I would of understood you better, not the reverse. And there's nothing illogical about a bird eating bread.

However, I may not grasp the Tao/Zen of it. But what has that to do with words? How do my word's misinterpret something that word's fail (either big or small) to capture?

Words have little, or nothing, to do with the Taoist actuality (whatever that may be) of the senario you described, regardless of how little/many words you may have used.

"How can the ultimate reality be inherently illogical? Okay, so it might not conform to our little-logic, but surely it makes sence within itself?"

The Tao is logic. For it created all things and therefore created logic. However, to understand it, you must look past human logic and embrace your inner self. Sometimes words limit things. And therefore limits your understanding of the Tao. Once you understand without limits, you have become one with the Tao.

"I'm going on a bit now. Sorry Master Virgil."

First off its Vigil, but thats ok. hehe. And its alright, you can go on as long as you want. If it helps for you to understand by asking lots of questions, so be it. I will answer them. And if I give a metaphor or riddle that you don't understand, ask me to explain it to you. And I will be much obliged to do so. I'm here not only to discuss taoism, but here to allow all of you to understand your true self. If that allows you to understand the Tao better, great, if it allows to you understand your own religion better, great!! That is what I am here for.

[dudley thoth]

Thanks Master Virgil...oops... Vigil.
(You've gotta admit its pretty close)

I've noticed something new in the taoism forum so i'm gonna check it out. Thanks again and i'll talk to you soon.