Taoist idea of Wu Wei (beliefs, experience, Zen, taoism)

[dudley thoth]

Originally Posted by Runt

the Eternal Tao that we can see and understand (but as such, "submits" to human perception

the E.T 'submits' to human perception? You mean, it lowers itself so we are able to comprehend it?

(that's not unlike Christianity)

Master Vigil?!?

[Runt]

LMAO... the Natural Tao is the part of the Eternal Tao that we can see and comprehend. Perhaps like... our PERCEPTION of the Eternal Tao, but also the effects of the Eternal Tao on our world.

[Master Vigil]

First of all, all things return to the tao, so our ignorance does as well.

As the words pass, you understand. As the world passes, you understand. When the Tao passes. All understand. You see that long and short exhibit each other, high and low set measure to each other, voice and sound harmonize each other, and back and front follow each other. Why do you worry over the teeming things? Let yourself understand. I once asked the wall why it was hard, it then allowed my head to hit into it. Then I understood. The pain is only the essence of the nature of that wall. Yet it helped me understand. Did that wall become less of a wall as I hit it? Did my head become more than a head when I hit it? So too does the Tao not change to fit my needs, nor do I change to fit the Tao's. We are as we are. The Tao has made it so.

Do you understand?

[Runt]

Is the Natural Tao then the ILLUSION of Change? And the Eternal Tao itself unchanging? And is Creation also unchanging? If so, what then is Change? Is it just another way of something BEING its nature... like an object at rest acted upon by another force will move, and this move will not be a change because it is the object's nature to move when it is acted upon by an outside force... the object does not change, nor does the force acting upon it, nor does motion itself change?

[Master Vigil]

A minute ago, I was not typing. But now I am, this is change. However, even though I am not the exact same as I was a minute ago. I am still Master Vigil. Why are these 2 feeble words defining me? Why not say I am changing? For it is not my nature to be defined as changing. It is change's nature to be defined as changing. After purpose is found, all words cease to exist. Find yourself within yourself, not within a word. Find the world within yourself, not within words. It is then that you will find the nature of the Tao to be cause. Change is just something it causes.

[dudley thoth]

Originally Posted by Master Vigil

Do you understand?

Nope.

Maybe I'm swimming against the Tide, eh?

How did the ONE become TWO?

[Master Vigil]

The one is the Tao, but the Tao is not one. The Tao therefore is able to create the myriad things. You must first get passed the words one, and two. And understand the yourself. You are one, yet you can create two. You aren't great, yet you can do this. The Tao is great, it does all.

It is just hard to use western logic and questioning to understand the Tao. I'm just trying to get you to understand without words. And with symbols. Understand that the wall is the Tao. And how the Tao like that wall, did not change to allow me to understand it, it just created pain. The pain is like nature and chi. And my head is me. I do not change to understand the Tao, I just understand the pain, or nature and chi.

[dudley thoth]

Originally Posted by Master Vigil

The one is the Tao, but the Tao is not one. The Tao therefore is able to create the myriad things. You must first get passed the words one, and two. And understand the yourself. You are one, yet you can create two. You aren't great, yet you can do this. The Tao is great, it does all.

It is just hard to use western logic and questioning to understand the Tao. I'm just trying to get you to understand without words. And with symbols. Understand that the wall is the Tao. And how the Tao like that wall, did not change to allow me to understand it, it just created pain. The pain is like nature and chi. And my head is me. I do not change to understand the Tao, I just understand the pain, or nature and chi.

Okay. But not everything is in accordance with the Tao is it? (or is it?)
Thats the stuff that concerns me. How can i differentiate between that which is Tao and that which flows against the stream. Perhaps the stuff that flows against the strean cannot help but inadvertently conform to the Tao. I Could understand that.

I dont think my logic is 'western', but universal.
Yet, logic must always fail when used to describe the reality beyond. It will always hit a paradox. I know of no religion (including my own) that evades that law. Logic can only take you so far...and no farther.

[Master Vigil]

Everything is in accordance yes, only because everything stems from it, yet, when you do more than necessary, or impede nature, it causes imbalance. This is against the Tao. Stress, and anxiety allows you to understand the difference. When things are not at peace, you know they are against the Tao. In the end, all things return to the Tao, but those unhindered return sooner.

Most people do use western logic though. And you do seem to be using it. Maybe that is a wrong assumption, but that is just what I have noticed. It is true that "western" logic can only take you so far. But "eastern" logic can take you straight to the nature of the Tao. Its a different kind of logic. Its more of a loss of logic. Its hard to explain in words. Eastern logic is seen in paradoxes, and metaphors, and riddles that do not seem to be answerable. But once you get past the surface, you understand its depths.

[dudley thoth]

Originally Posted by Master Vigil

Everything is in accordance yes, only because everything stems from it, yet, when you do more than necessary, or impede nature, it causes imbalance. This is against the Tao. Stress, and anxiety allows you to understand the difference. When things are not at peace, you know they are against the Tao. In the end, all things return to the Tao, but those unhindered return sooner.

Most people do use western logic though. And you do seem to be using it. Maybe that is a wrong assumption, but that is just what I have noticed. It is true that "western" logic can only take you so far. But "eastern" logic can take you straight to the nature of the Tao. Its a different kind of logic. Its more of a loss of logic. Its hard to explain in words. Eastern logic is seen in paradoxes, and metaphors, and riddles that do not seem to be answerable. But once you get past the surface, you understand its depths.

According to that view it would be fair to say that I have been using 'western', or rather 'scientific', or as some would say 'apollo/solar' logic. The truth has a funny way of elluding definition and that is the function of riddles/parables/symbols. 'Mystic' logic, on the other hand, refuses to come out into the sunlight. It resides in watery, hard to reach places and will always (in this reality anyway) be shrouded in darkness. the Truth is big. We can only catch glimpes.

Philosophically if we take into account the 'machine of the universe' only, while ignoring/denying/misunderstanding that which holds it all together, we will always reach the wrong conclusions. The universe is more than a 'machine', and so it is with our minds.

However, the questions i have been asking are not illogical. The machine of the mind may be able to perceive the primordial 'split', and reCOGNise that from a Toaist philosophical perspective it could never of happened. It may be that Taoism is fundamentally a human philosophy disguised as spiritual. It's a possibility.