Taoist idea of Wu Wei (beliefs, experience, Zen, taoism)

[Master Vigil]

Anything can be a form of meditation. Meditation is about focus, to focus on one or a few things so to not have distractions in your mind. These distractions will keep your mind from clearing. So if pouring tea, or dancing allows you to clear your mind, yes, it is meditation.

[dudley thoth]

Questions for Master Vigil

Is the natural Tao the multiplicity of creation?

Is the multiplicity of creation in a state of agitation?

Does the eternal Tao manifest itself within the natural Tao?

Is the natural Tao in a paradoxical state of simultaneous unity and division?

[dudley thoth]

Originally Posted by Runt

I liked that quote. The analogy between action (pouring tea) and poetry hits deep. Being a dancer, I can understand that movement and poetry have much in common, but Campbell's words really offered a new perspective... kind of a "Why" to the action, rather than a "how", if that makes any sense.

For me, dance is meditation. I can go for a long time, not thinking at all, and then suddenly realize that I'm in the studio (or on stage, or in the basement), drenched in sweat, muscles aching, but feel so relaxed and content. I'm just learning to achieve the same state when doing martial arts.

Joseph Campbell can be quite lucid at times.

Something Robert Graves wrote.

"Originally, the poet was the leader of a totem-society of religious dancers. His verses - versus is a Latin word corresponding to the Greek strophe and means 'a turning' - were danced around an altar or in a sacred enclosure and each verse started a new movement in the dance. The word 'ballad' has the same origin: it is a dance poem, from the Latin ballare, to dance." ('white Goddess', p.413)

I think there might be some truth to that.

[Master Vigil]

"Is the natural Tao the multiplicity of creation?"

The eternal Tao created the multiplicity of the universe. And also created the natural Tao, and chi. And in turn created the myriad things.

"Is the multiplicity of creation in a state of agitation?"

The multiplicity of creation is always in a state of agitation, for only the eternal Tao is in perfect balance. However, the natural Tao helps the flow of nature along without its own agitation, therefore agitation only comes from another. One is not in agitation solely by itself. For the natural Tao is agitated by us, but is not agitated by itself.

"Does the eternal Tao manifest itself within the natural Tao?"

Indeed, for the natural Tao is created by the eternal Tao.

"Is the natural Tao in a paradoxical state of simultaneous unity and division?"

Yes, as we all are both good and evil. The natural Tao is both as well, and is also light and dark, low and high, long and short, etc... . It is in perfect balance with the 2 though, just as is the eternal Tao. Everything is a pradox, for a 5 foot person could be tall compared to a child, but to a 6 foot tall person, they would be considered short. So how can a person be tall and short at the same time? It contains both opposites within it, just like the Tao.

[Master Vigil]

Sorry, in my second answer, I didn't mean to include the word eternal in the sentence...

for only the "eternal" Tao is in perfect balance.

It should read like this...

for only the Tao is in perfect balance.

[dudley thoth]

Originally Posted by Master Vigil

For the natural Tao is agitated by us, but is not agitated by itself.

By 'us' do you mean the multiplicity of creation, or just sentient beings, or just human beings?

Is there anything outside of creation that could agitate the natural Tao?

Isn't the first division of the Tao (Yin/Yang) an agitation?

Doesn't Creation arise out of the natural Tao?


I hope you don't mind all this questions :talk:

thudley doth

[Master Vigil]

"By 'us' do you mean the multiplicity of creation, or just sentient beings, or just human beings?"

I mean the multiplicity of creation which does include the concept of yin and yang. For the multiplicity of creation includes the opposites which are found within this concept.

"Is there anything outside of creation that could agitate the natural Tao?"

Since the only thing outside of creation would be the Eternal Tao, and the Eternal Tao is in perfect balance, no. nothing outside of creation could agitate the Tao, for the Tao cannot agitate itself.

"Isn't the first division of the Tao (Yin/Yang) an agitation?"

Yes it is an agitation, but its hard to say it is a division of the Tao, for the Tao is not divided, it is in perfect balance. But all the myriad things the Tao creates are no longer in this perfect balance, so the concept of opposites agitates all those myriad things.

"Doesn't Creation arise out of the natural Tao?"

Creation arises out of the Eternal Tao, the natural Tao is what causes the flow of Chi and allows for change in the universe. So I guess you can say that the Natural Tao is a creation of the Eternal Tao.

"I hope you don't mind all this questions"

No, I love it, and I encourage it. It helps me to learn through teaching. And it makes me question and study more. Thank you, and I hope you have more questions. And I hope I am able to answer them with the true nature of the Tao in my mind.

[dudley thoth]

Originally Posted by Master Vigil

"I hope you don't mind all this questions"

No, I love it, and I encourage it. It helps me to learn through teaching. And it makes me question and study more. Thank you, and I hope you have more questions. And I hope I am able to answer them with the true nature of the Tao in my mind.

Cool.

Your right. It's good to question. Self questioning is the/a way of dispelling ignorance (Does ignorance then return to the Tao, do you think? just a side thought.). Somewhere in the Bible it says "Test everything".

Questioning also helps me learn. And i know more about Taoism today than i did yesterday, so keep it up!

Anyway, Thank you Master Virgil.

God bless. :goodjob:

This poem has helped me alot. It's called 'Broken Images' by Robert Graves. Enjoy.

He is quick, thinking in clear images;
I am slow, thinking in broken images.

He becomes dull, trusting to his clear images;
I become sharp, mistrusting my broken images.

Trusting his images, he assumes their relevance;
Mistrusting my images, i question their relevance.

Assuming their relevance, he assumes the fact;
Questioning their relevence, i question the fact.

When the fact fails him, he questions his senses;
When the fact fails me, i approve my senses.

He continues quick and dull in his clear images;
I continue slow and sharp in my broken images.

He is in a new confusion of his understading;
I in a new understanding of my confusion.

[dudley thoth]

Originally Posted by Master Vigil

"Isn't the first division of the Tao (Yin/Yang) an agitation?"

Yes it is an agitation, but its hard to say it is a division of the Tao, for the Tao is not divided, it is in perfect balance. But all the myriad things the Tao creates are no longer in this perfect balance, so the concept of opposites agitates all those myriad things.

Haven't we already established that the natural Tao is both United (calm) and Divided (agitated) at the same time?

If so then it would be far to say that a division/agitation (though counteracted by the 'calm') occured to create the universe. (Agitation unchecked, I assume, would cause total dissolution.)

Yet, how can there be a division/agitation preceding creation?

Is it possible that the division/agitation came after creation?

[Runt]

Haven't we already established that the natural Tao is both United (calm) and Divided (agitated) at the same time?

I think you are mistaking the Natural Tao for the Eternal Tao. The Eternal Tao is perfect and undivided, the Natural Tao (a creation of the Eternal Tao) is basically the effects of the Eternal Tao on Creation and the part of the Eternal Tao that we can see and understand (but as such, "submits" to human perception, meaning it consists of a system of binary units, or sets of opposites--hence division, agitation, and imperfectation). The Natural Tao is divided, the Eternal Tao is united.

Master Vigil?