More Excerpts From Chuang Tzu (Earth, mystic, heaven, taoism)

[Runt]

Chuang Tzu is known for the way he took Taoist principles and made them more accessable to the general public than the Tao Te Ching. Some excerpts for discussion include:

"The unity of the Way is something that virtue can never master; what understanding does not understand is something that debate can never encompass. To apply names... is to invite evil. The sea does not refuse the rivers and come flowing eastward into it---it is the perfection of greatness. The sage embraces all heaven and earth, and his bounty extends to the whole world, yet no one knows who he is or what family he belongs to..."

"There is a Holy Man living on the distant Ku-she Mountain, with skin like ice and snow... He does not eat the five grains, but sucks the wind, drinks the dew, mounts the clouds and mist, rides a flying dragon, and wanders beyond the four seas. By concentrating his spirit, he can protect creatures from sickness and plague and make the harvest plentiful."

What do you think these two passages reveal about Taoism?

[the_Unknown]

Hmmm, this seems more complicated than Lao Tzu...So many more words together and less space...

---------------------------------------------------------------------

The unity of the Way simply means all.

If you look at the parts you will not see the whole.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Naming things is the same as talking about differences.

Evil is chaos.

Chaos is confusion.

So differentiating and classifying things brings evil, or confusion to you.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just like the sea not refusing the rivers, the sage embraces all heave... everything...

This is pretty obvious, don't discriminate between things and embrace all.

Do not define yourself, because defining yourself or living by particular values is a form of discrimination or building walls between you and everything else.

================================================== ======================

Probably the most important thing is the importance of air and unity with heaven. The man gains freedom by embracing heaven. Embrace heaven through breathing and concentration and there are many things you can do.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would recommend you read the Tao Te Ching because it is much more simple and doesn't go into naming things like Ku-she Mountain, etc which are just needless additions to the simplicity of the Tao.

The Tao Te Ching repeats the same things over and over again. Recognizing this repetative thread in the Tao Te Ching, and then in the greater world, will allow you to truly understand that which is the Tao.

Bypass this first step, and you will continue to stumble until you have it.

[Scarlett Wampus]

Originally Posted by Runt

"There is a Holy Man living on the distant Ku-she Mountain, with skin like ice and snow... He does not eat the five grains, but sucks the wind, drinks the dew, mounts the clouds and mist, rides a flying dragon, and wanders beyond the four seas. By concentrating his spirit, he can protect creatures from sickness and plague and make the harvest plentiful."

Its mystic-speak loaded with symbolism typical of Chuang Tzu's style and times. Basically, this Holy Man is an idealised hermit figure and spends a lot of quiet time in 'nature'. Somewhere else in Chuang Tzu (I think its the Chuang Tzu) he talks about a guy who survived on almost nothing except dew & sunlight. Apparently a tiger ate him because he was getting carried away and didn't pay enough attention to his 'earthly' form.

Originally Posted by The_Unknown

Hmmm, this seems more complicated than Lao Tzu...So many more words together and less space...

Never! Chuang Tzu is always clear and to the point. Example: -

Now I have something to say here. I do not know whether or not what I have to say is of the same category as "this." But, whether it is of the same category or not, like them it is a category, this in the end it is no different from "that." Nevertheless, let me try to explain myself.

There is a beginning. There is a time before beginning. There is a time before the time before beginning. There is being. There is nonbeing. There is a stage before nonbeing. There is a stage before the stage before nonbeing. Suddenly there is being and nonbeing! Still, as for being and nonbeing, I do not know which is really being and which is nonbeing. Now I have just said something, but I do not know whether what I have said is really saying something or not.

[the_Unknown]

Originally Posted by Scarlett Wampus

Never! Chuang Tzu is always clear and to the point. Example: -

Now I have something to say here. I do not know whether or not what I have to say is of the same category as "this." But...

I think someone is being a smartass...

But this is before the begining of the thoughts that I still not know of myself as being because of the habit to not be.

[Scarlett Wampus]

Originally Posted by the_Unknown

But this is before the begining of the thoughts that I still not know of myself as being because of the habit to not be.

I tell people that all the time but they never listen. Fools!

[ChrisP]

Originally Posted by Scarlett Wampus

I tell people that all the time but they never listen. Fools!

Terrible

The writings of Chuang Tzu and Lao Tzu both reveal nothing of Taoism.

Those passages imho are showing that by watching our environment we can achieve understanding of how everything moves together. This is Taoism.

PS. sorry I've been neglecting this forum lately. I've been tied up. But she let me go.

[michel]

Originally Posted by ChrisP

The writings of Chuang Tzu and Lao Tzu both reveal nothing of Taoism.

Those passages imho are showing that by watching our environment we can achieve understanding of how everything moves together. This is Taoism.

PS. sorry I've been neglecting this forum lately. I've been tied up. But she let me go.

I agree with you Chris; I think it is indicative of the purpose and usefulness of being very objective. Watching the dénouement of nature confirms the principle of Tao.



From:- http://www.jadedragon.com/archives/june98/tao.html

Taoism - The Wu-Wei Principle, Part 4

by Ted Kardash

This is the fourth in a series of articles on Taoism, a Chinese philosophical tradition whose roots extend back to 3000 B.C.

The essential message of Taoism is that life constitutes an organic, interconnected whole which undergoes constant transformation.

[ChrisP]

Originally Posted by michel

The essential message of Taoism is that life constitutes an organic, interconnected whole which undergoes constant transformation.

I agree with this in the rational scientific type sense of it (ooooh yeeeeah... science ) but rational is something the tao is not.

English is a bad language for multiple images/meanings in one sentence and it is for this reason I'd reccomend reading at least three different translations of the Tao te Ching.

Organic implies organisms which implies life. There is tao in non life too. Tao is adaptation to circumstance; doing what comes naturally within the circumstances of now. Now is a funny word. If you start thinking about Now, then Now is gone. So do without thinking of the circumstance.

Animal life is a good example of this. M_V regularly points out how animals go on, doing their thing without even thinking about what it is they're doing/not doing. They just do it because that is what needs to be done. This doesn't mean we shouldn't think about things I don't think though, thinking is a natural human trait. Instead only think when it comes naturally. If you have to stop and think then you'll find yourself stepping out of the circumstances, when all you need to know is in them.

That probably isn't exactly what I mean. I've long maintained I'm hopeless at explaining.

EDIT : Yeah, that only achieves about a 10th of what I'd hoped. Maybe if I had 30,000 words or something? Nah, I'd still never get my point across.

Honestly. Just go to the park and watch the birds in the trees do their thing. Do the M_V styles and go watch a stream. Look at the rocks in said stream.

That's all there is to Taoism. It's simple, but so easy to complicate with thinking

[Scarlett Wampus]

Originally Posted by ChrisP

That probably isn't exactly what I mean. I've long maintained I'm hopeless at explaining.

If you didn't feel hopeless at explaining then chances are you would be less aware of Tao. I mean, who does not feel stupid & confused when it comes to this 'stuff'? From my pov your last two posts showed an intuitively/instinctually rooted understanding of Li, Te and Wu Wei. All fundamental principles (but only vaguely defined) of Taoist 'stuff'.